Herpolsheimer's....

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Posted By: Dave F

I know I keep hearing these are one of a kind cards. But can that really be? I keep expecting at least a 2nd card of somebody to pop up before long. Anybody know much about this set and why there would have only been a single set issued?

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Posted By: MikeU

They are all rare except the Cobb. There are multiple copies of the Cobb floating around with $5 written on the back.

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Posted By: Marc S.

there are enough sets out there that are singular in nature, that I do not think it is hard to suggest that Herpolsheimer's is as well. Alpha Engraving, Allegheny, etc.

And since it is the 1921's only that are considered unique -- I think the fact that they were all found in the same place, etc. lends credence to the belief that they are unique. Perhaps a test run that ended up being vetoed, and the cards ultimately ended up with a dealer...

Anyway, there are better experts here than I on this cool issue.

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Posted By: Dave F

Mike-

Ok...I don't mind asking the stupid question, is the "multiple Cobbs" in reference to josephina or whatever the seller's name is on eBay that has posted the Herpolsheimer Cobbs for sale before?


Marc-
I agree there are quite a few sets that are probably 1/1. I just really feel like more of these will surface at some point...could be completely wrong though. They are cool cards and I kick myself now for getting rid of the one I had but it was during the e98 complete set phase I was going through (ouch at the money out the window there!)


Dave

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Posted By: MikeU

I was trying to get Jeff excited. The original founder died in 1920, so the marketing concept may have been nixed under the circumstances and never saw the light of day except a sample set.

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Posted By: Dave F

Ahhh..the original founder died in 1920 huh? That could make sense...set was issued in 1921, he died in 1920 and instead of the mass production maybe the design he came up with for the cards were produced in a single form of each card and given to his family?

Kind of dumb and i'm stretching it...but its just now hump day this week.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

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Posted By: fkw

For those that werent on eBay 3.5 years ago...

The 1921 Herpolsheimer cards were not known until they started appearing on eBay in early Oct 2004 being sold by a single noncollector seller (ebzz).

The cards were auctioned singly about 4-6 per week. The first few weeks of auctions the cards didnt bring much $$ because many were thinking they might not be authentic since no one had seen them before. But once a few of the early winners started getting them in the mail and confirmed they were authentic the bidding jumped a bit.

Some examples of what these first sold for, on up to the Ruth which was one of the last ones to sell...

Bush $146 (1st one to sell)
Bagby $52
Myers $71
Woods $143
Rixey $168
Speaker $349
GC Alexander $587
Collins $380
Hornsby $1009
Cobb $1526
Ruth $7777

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Posted By: Dave F

Great info and interesting prices when they hit the bay, thanks Frank.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

That's great info, Frank.

I wonder how close we could get to re-assembling the complete set with what's in our collections?

I have the Schalk and the Maranville.

-Al

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Posted By: leon

I have Stengel....he was 275.....

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

I have....



Wheat
Scott
Judge
Thomas
Young Pep
Johnston
Wambsganss
Sallee


be well Brian

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

I have Urban Faber and Carl Weilman
-Rhett

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Posted By: Anonymous

Gentlemen,

I hate to have to be a jerk here, but the cards are fakes. A gentleman who appeared at the Robert Morris show in Pittsburgh years ago had these cards. I asked him about the cards and he indicated that they were fakes. The monetary amounts on the backs of most cards are simply what the gentleman was asking on the cards. I believe this man also set up once at the National in Cleveland a number of years ago.

Again, the cards are fakes.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Brian, I have one sitting in front of me right now and I can guarantee you that they are NOT fake. Also, there are players in the set not found in other sets (Henry, Davenport, Weilman, etc.) that if they were "fake" where did they get the pictures to make them. Seems like a lot of trouble to go to to make fake cards, more likely they would have used the guys found on E121 Series of 80 or 120 guys to make a "fake" set.

I was as skeptical as anyone when they first hit the scene, and didn't bid on them until I had actually seen one in person. Everything about them is consistent with other E121-like sets-- the feel, the ink, the thickness, the pictures/printing.

The person that had them in Pittsburgh may very well have thought they were fakes (as they were unreported), but again I am certain that these are legitimate.

-Rhett

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Any thought on why Henry and Weilman appear in the w575-1 sets and at least Henry appears in the Standard Biscuit set?

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Posted By: Anonymous

Rhett,

I'll put the following question to you:

If a gentleman is selling the cards at a show and indicates they are not real, what is his leverage to sell them at any other price than what is marked on the back of most?

I can't get around the gentleman's honesty.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Todd, There was a timeline from 1920 to 1922 when the producers of the E121-like cards were printing the cards for the various brands. The E121 Series of 80 set is from the middle of that time frame, not a really early run, so there are several players produced prior to that set that are tough to find with any of the backs.

The earliest of the E121 card sets to be produced was the Holsum Bread Type 1 set (the ones with the "H" in H. Weil all the way to the left on back). This is obvious by the inclusion of the Black Sox players and many Chicago players are found with "Cubs" and "White Sox" on front as opposed to Chicago Americans/Nationals as in all later sets.

The next round of sets to be produced are made up of Standard Biscuit, Herpolsheimers, Holsum (Type 2-indented "H") and the W575-1 cards. Actually W575-1's (with high quality photos and paper) were produced from this time to the end of the production run.

The next grouping (time-wise) is the largest grouping and would include the E121 Series of 80 along with the bulk of the rest of the producers (Haffners, Gasslers, Clarks, etc. etc.).

The last grouping is headlined by the E121 Series of 120 cards, this group had some major changes on the obverse. Positions were simplified (all OF became O.F. as opposed to R.F., etc. and the infield positions became 1B, 2B., etc.). Also in this group are W501, W575-1 (low quality photos-better called W501-Type 2's), and Lou Gertenrich's.

John Henry, Dave Davenport, Ray Morgan, and Carl Weilman (amongst other examples) were all done with their careers by 1921 and were dropped from later production runs. None of these guys made it to the E121 Series of 80 set and are thus "difficult" players to find.

I have an article on these sets that I have been working onm, and I hope to get it published at some point. I am also working on a "super set" spreadsheet with only cards that I have personally seen or can prove to exist.
-Rhett

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Posted By: Anonymous

Rhett,

I am not trying to be argumentative, but once you near the end of your research and are ready to print the article, you have my permission to list my name in the article as stating the 1921 Herpolsheimer's are fakes.

Thank You and hope to see you again at the Robert Morris show if you still live in Pittsburgh. You have some great items for sale.

Brian Van Horn

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I'm looking forward to your article. Here's a SBiscuit Henry:

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Brian, I'm not discounting what you say. All I have to go on is the cards themselves and they have all the hallmarks of a legitimate E121 like card. The ink, paper, etc all point to them being real.

Like I said earlier I too thought they were fake when they first came to light. However, after handling the cards themselves I can't deny that they appear to be real. I can't explain the story the gentleman told you at the Pittsburgh show, as I wasn't there and would have loved to hear his story as to how he knew they were reprints.

Brian, not trying to be confrontational or anything but have you personally handled a card from the ebay find and really examined it? I too thought it was too good to be true until I personally examined one so I understand your skepticism.

All the physical evidence that I have seen points the cards being real.

-Rhett

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Posted By: fkw

last time I looked I have 10 of them. Hornsby, Gleason, and a bunch of commons.

Im looking at one right now, theyre authentic.

Say they were fake.... why would someone only make one of each fake?

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Posted By: Dave F

Brian Van Horn-

I am far from knowledgeable enough about this set to say one way or the other as to if they are actually reproductions from a later time period or not...but with as many as SGC has slabbed it is hard for me to believe they aren't authentic and from the 1921 time period. Also with more knowledgeable collectors such as Leon, Frank, and Rhett (who I believe I sold the Weilman to) believing in their authenticity, that removes any remaining doubt for me...but I have been wrong before.


Dave

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Posted By: Dave F

A couple more distinctions based on the SGC and PSA pop reports...there have been at least two graded of each of the following (now, are they the same card...)

Hornsby SGC 30
PSA 5Q (Big difference in grade is the same card)

Speaker PSA 6Q
PSA 6 (where would the qualifier have went to?)

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Posted By: Joann

Dave,

My guess is same cards, and that the PSA "Q" grades were both for the pencil marks on the back. All of the Herps had a price written on the back in pencil.

Since a PSA qualifier is typically thought of as a 2-grade difference, then the PSA 5Q would roughly equate to an SGC 40. That the card got a 30 from SGC could be because of tougher grading or whatever, but it's not that far off.

As to the PSA 6 versus PSA 6Q, the loss of the qualifier was probably because the pencil mark was erased in between gradings. The marks are fairly light and easily erased.

I've always thought that raised an interesting grading point. The grading standards are (and should be) based on what the grader can see physical evidence of. Not what they may "know" is there. It is very well known in the hobby that these all had marks on the back. If one arrives at a grading company without a mark, they surely must know it has been erased. But since so many grade without the qualifier or mark reflected in the grade, they must go strictly by what they can or can't find or see - even if they are looking for it.

Joann

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Okay, so here's where we're at thus far:

Cobb (Jeff didn't post but I know from the other thread that he has this)
Faber
Gleason
Hornsby
Johnston
Judge
Maranville
Sallee
Schalk
Scott
Stengel
Thomas
Wamby
Weilman
Wheat
Young (Pep)

Plus Frank has a bunch of commons. Any more?

-Al

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Posted By: leon

Al- I too have several (3-4) commons at home.....if you want specifics I can get them for you...but only Stengel is in my collection

Joann- I think you are absolutely correct. If there was a mark, and it got erased with no indention left and nothing can be seen, then there will not be a discounted grade......is the way I believe SGC will grade them. It's as Dave F had said before on this board, to paraphrase......"if we can't see something we can't ding for it"......sort of common sense.....and I am not trying to be condescending at all....just helping to explain the way I believe graders will grade these...regards

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Leon:

Sure! For a goof, let's see if we have the whole set among the bunch of us.

-Al

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Posted By: H Murphy

have 2 commons, Amos Strunk and Jeff Pfeffer. Sure hope they are real!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

My Cobb is real. I am certain. Joe Orlando told me so.

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Posted By: peter ullman

personally I have no doubts 21' herpo's are real. is it possible they were made by a former printer/employee for his/her own use during the time period of 1921 or so?

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Posted By: Bruce MacPherson

My three cards:

Sam Rice
Frank Baker
Al Mamaux

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Posted By: fkw

Al, here is my complete list (over 1/7th the set )

Dave Davenport
Bill Donovan
WL Gardner
Kid Gleason
Rogers Hornsby
Clyde Milan
Roger Peckinpaugh
Fred Toney
George Tyler
George Whitted

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

and intriguing. I remain skeptical about these cards, although I do not own one yet. Assuming they're real, I remain skeptical that they are unique, but will keep an open mind. Lastly though, as rare as they may be, I would like to see the board members here share their holdings of Clarks, Standard Biscuits, Gassler etc of the same ilk. I would venture a guess that there are more Herps held by the membership than any of these except Holsum.

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Posted By: Keith O'Leary

Henry, Stock, Vaughn.

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Posted By: Cobby33

I'm pretty sure I bought a raw Ping Bodie from Leon (hi Leon)- had it graded and later sold it on eBay.

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Posted By: leon

I think you are correct. I have owned about 10 altogether. I will check this evening and see what other commons I still have. From my recollection the Stengel I have has some situation with it too....like wrong team or wrong year for team....or something?

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Todd, you can't own one anyway, because it seems like the rest of us already have them all.

I'll update the checklist as soon as I'm done w/work.

-Al

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

There is an Eddie Collins card out there somewhere. I got outbid on it.

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Posted By: Dave F

Like Todd mentioned, a poll would be great if anyone had time to make one up...would be interesting to see if there was in fact more Herp's than any other back issue.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

All the Herpos currently owned by Net54 members (that have responded):

Baker
Cobb
Davenport
Donovan
Faber
Gardner
Gleason
Henry
Hornsby
Johnston
Judge
Mamaux
Maranville
Milan
Peckinpaugh
Pfeffer
Rice
Sallee
Schalk
Schang
Scott
Stengel
Stock
Strunk
Thomas
Toney
Tyler
Vaughn
Wamby
Weilman
Wheat
Whitted
Young (Pep)

31 so far, including Jeff's fake Cobb.

-Al

Edited to add in Wally Schang - thanks, Joann.

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Posted By: Joann

I have Wally Schang.

Anyone know where Ruth is, or if it has been transacted since the original '04 sale?

J

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Posted By: fkw

There is only 68 total Herpolsheimer cards (all different),....so there might be more T206 Wagners than Herpolsheimer cards.

It will rank up with the toughest backs of the E121 group.

These are probably tougher...
Leaders Theatre
Witmor Candy (vertical)
Clark's Bread

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Why do you say there are only 68 different Herpolsheimers? Were the others lost/destroyed? Is it because everyone buys the story that only this one group could exist, and that the seller only had 68 for sale? Just curious.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Todd, the 68 number is based solely on the fact tht that was the # in the group that was sold. Since some early E121-like sets (if they advertised the number in the set) stated that there were 80 (like Holsum, Standard Biscuit), there were probably at least 80 cards produced in the set initially, however only 68 were found/survived.

There has never been any definitive proof that there was only one set produced. The part of the find that has led people to believe this is that most cards were in high grade (other than the writing on back) and the sheer # of cards found, and the fact that there was no duplication of any subjects. All of which could simply point to the set being given away at once or a tenacious kid that collected as many different as he could and had no use for dupes.

Is it possible that they were openly marketed? Absolutely, but it does seems strange that others haven't surfaced, but then again we have also only been paying attention to these backs for a relatively short amount of time. I would agree with others that even despite the fact that there is only one of each Herp player known there are more known Herps than vertical Witmor's or Clark's Bread, and some of the other E121-like backs.

-Rhett

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Posted By: leon

I also have Deal and Burns to add to the list .......

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Posted By: Zinn

You can add Joe Jackson to the list.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Got a scan, Zinn? That's got to be one special card.

-Al

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Posted By: Zinn

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=160221224468&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=006

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Posted By: leon

Wrong series...the ones we are speaking of are the size of W575-1....