Latest Clean Sweep Auction Closes Feb 6

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Posted By: Steve

We wanted to wish everyone on the board a Happy and Healthy New Year and announce that the latest Clean Sweep Auction closes on February 6. As always, board members may email for a free catalog or the catalog can be downloaded as a PDF file on our home page.

Auction highlights include:

(1) Big run of T5 Pinkertons PSA slabbed, with Wagner, Lajoie
(2) Near Set of T222s, including Alexander and Walter Johnson, both PSA graded
(3) Partial sets of T205, T206 and T207
(4) Partial 1915 Cracker Jack set with many graded cards
(5) Near set of T202s with many graded cards
(6) 1933-1941 Goudey Sets and Near Sets
(7) M101-5 George Sisler RC PSA 8
(8) E125 Tris Speaker SGC 4 (extremely rare)
(9) 1941 Play Ball paper set on original uncut sheets as issued

and much more.

We also wanted to let the board know that we have adopted what we hope will be a partial solution to the problem of an endless auction. In order to provide a disincentive to very late night snipers, bids placed after 1:30 AM will be subject to an additional 5% buyers premium each half hour. Our goal here is not to make any money from this but rather to have the auction end earlier and not reward a similar group of bidders who bid very late in every major auction. We did not use the 30-minute rule popular among some auctions as we feel that makes it very difficult for someone bidding on 10 or more lots among other reasons.

Thanks much,

Steve Verkman
Clean Sweep Auctions
www.cleansweepauctions.com.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Steve- the 5% additional buyer's premium is interesting, although unclear how it will work. I always felt that there had to be something built into the system to get bidders not to wait hours and hours before they start serious bidding. This will obviously discourage them from starting late, but I wonder how it will work. I will be curious to see how it is received.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Can't you just pick a reasonable time and end it then? Like say 1am Eastern. I think Lew and Alan Rosen did something similar to this. Your 5% isn't hurting me at all though, I am long asleep by then. One question, if I leave a ceiling bid early and some West Coast Dan Mckee hater bids after your set time, and my automatic increment kicks in after that, do I get penalized the 5% while I am fast asleep? Your bouncer at Reading, Dan.

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Posted By: John S

Good question Dan, I hadn't thought of that.

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Posted By: Steve

Good point guys and yes, max bids placed as late as 1:29 EST (or anytime earlier) are NEVER subject to an additional premium.

Dan, the problem with a dead cutoff is that the auction will only get very active for 30 minutes as everyone always wants to be the last bidder!

We did try this on our last auction (non-cards) and it seemed to work well. It is certainly not set in stone and we are flexible if a better option presents itself for tweaking...

Thanks - Steve

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Posted By: dan mckee

ok Steve, I can understand that. It just seems to work fine with ebay so why not other internet bidding? Glad to know my early ceilings won't get charged. Thanks Steve, Dan.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I like the idea of a system that rewards the bidder for bidding early. Whether this is it, or if it needs tweaking, time will tell.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Steve, quit posting threads! I just got bombarded with out bid notices!

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Posted By: Misunderestimated (Brian H.)

I think its a good idea and its nice to see an auction house trying new things to address consumer concerns. BTW nice auction.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

While I appreciate the need to try to do something so auctions don't run all night, I'm not sure if what you're proposing is fair for the following reasons.

Suppose I am interested in a lot. My bidding strategy, though, is not to try to outlast my competition by waiting to the wee hours of the morning to bid. On the auction's last day, I'm prepared to bid whenever I notice I've been outbid. However, suppose I'm uncomfortable leaving a max bid. Nothing personal, but shilling is something I believe I have a right to be concerned about with hobby auctions in general (again, not saying with yours but in general) and because I can't say with ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CERTAINTY that I will not be shilled up, I simply do not want to leave a max bid. Why should I be penalized for that? I can't control when my competition will bid and if he decides to wait until the last minute, it's conceivable that I will HAVE to bid after your 1:30am deadline.

Or, here's another scenario. Suppose I am okay with leaving a max bid and in fact do. The max I leave is what I in good faith at the time believe is the highest I will go. Then suppose I'm outbid after 1:30am. Only then do I realize that I'm prepared to go even higher. Max bids often do not reflect high how a person will bid because they are hypothetical bids. Only when the real moment of truth comes and the person KNOWS if he doesn't go higher he has lost the lot does he really know his limit. I don't see why he should then have to be penalized with an additional buyer's premium by wanting to bid further (and in the process make both you and your consignor more money).

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Posted By: bigfish

Dan,
I agree with you. While I am fast asleep counting sheep, I am always outbid. If the auction house would pick a set ending time, it would be nice.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Corey- that's an excellent point, and I suppose Steve will have to address it. But in theory, that guy you may be bidding against might be equally reluctant to wait until 1:30 AM (why would he want to pay the penalty) so he is likely to bid earlier.

Of course, one obvious problem is everyone will try to get their bids in at around 1:29 AM which would give them a huge edge over their competition.

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Posted By: Steve

Corey,

As always you are among the most erudite posters on this forum. As far as scenario one, you are absolutely correct. If people do not want to leave max bids, I understand this as there is no doubt shilling going on in many auctions but I think we are the only one that ACTIVELY VERIFIES that consignors are not bidding on their own lots and have removed bids entirely when this has taken place. The logical conclusion to us, either way, of that approach is that the auction will then go all night. We find with our auction that a very similar number of bidders are the last bidders each time and naturally, they do not leave max bids.

For scenario 2, you also bring up a good point but we are trying to come up with a partial solution to this problem but we have not yet envisioned a solution to that issue and we would only hope, as has happened the first time we did this, that nearly all bidding will be over by about 1:30 AM EST.

Hope this helps and thanks for the input - Steve

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Posted By: James Feagin

It sounds as if the 30 minute rule per lot is picking up a lot more steam. I find it a lot more fun, reasonable, time effective and doesn't make much of a difference in prices realized. Last REA auction was like a death watch since it ended at, what, 4AM? I endured until 2AM and then collapsed.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Thanks for the thoughtful response and again, I applaud you for trying to come up with creative ways to deal with something everybody is seeking a solution to.

In the end, the problem of auctions running too long may, as with many other things in life, be something to which there not only is no practical solution, but something in which the best solution(s) themselves have serious pitfalls. And sometimes then the best solution is to keep the current system. With what you're doing, not only are you penalizing those ("auction-ender-delayers") who intentionally keep auctions going too long (which I think we all have no problem with), but you are also penalizing those who through no fault of their own get caught up in the auction-ender-delayers' webs. And that is what I have a problem with. For those innocent people, you should be encouraging them to keep bidding, not kicking them in the jaw for doing so. I know if I am bidding in one of your auctions (and believe me I would love it to end at some reasonable hour so I can go to sleep) and I am topped at 1:29am and for one of the reasons I described in my previous post I would like to place another bid, I would be very resentful that I am now forced to pay a higher buyer's premium. In fact I might be so pissed off I might decide not to raise my bid, which is a lose-lose for both you and your consignor. Perhaps a solution to this situation would be for you to change your rule to leave it to your discretion to add the extra buyer's premium after 1:30am. If as you say it is only a few bidders who cause the auction to run all night, and it is obvious who they are and what they are doing, then the threat of nailing them with a higher BP might be enough to address the problem without penalizing those whom you do not want to penalize.

I might add that another approach altogether might be to after, say, midnight change the 10-minute rule to a 5-minute rule, and every 20 minutes knock 1 minute off it, with the understanding that after 1:20am it would stay at 1 minute. This way by 1:30am you'd be down to a 1-minute rule, everybody still bidding would be glued to their computer screens and the auction would probably be over very shortly.

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Posted By: Jay

Steve--Adopt the Mastro system of closing lots individually and this becomes a nonissue. BTW, if you addopt this system, and since you are not doing this for the money, please let us know what charity you are donating the extra commissions to.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Corey- I said the same thing on my own thread. You're stealing my lines!

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Our thoughts crossed in cyberspace!!

The more I think about it the more I like this new rule of mine (I mean -- of ours!). I never liked the rule of individually closing lots because often when I am outbid on one I turn my sights to another, and would hate to lose this option to do so. In effect reducing the 10-minute rule to something less and less after some specified hour forces the auction to become almost like live bidding, which has the benefits of ending things in a hurry yet still gives one the option to focus on other lots.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

I have not read Barry's thread, yet, and this may have been raised. Employ the 5% penalty those who have demonstrated that is only their strategy to bid at the last minute. Since a footprint is left once a bid comes in, it should be easy to determine bidding patterns by the auction house. Mark an item on day one and not come back until the closing day towards the close of the auction. If I am actively bidding on a lot well before the cut off time, I would like to know that I am not going to be subject to the penalty because someone placed a bid at 01:29:35.

One other thing to keep in mind is that unless you have an unlimited budget, a bidder may not be able to be actively involved in all interested lots. I know I am constantly reassessing my bidding based on being out bid and factoring in how much I need/want the item. So I may gain interest in items late into the auction that I had passed on, but marked early, as I was concentrating on other lots. When those lots got too high, I might then want to go back to those other lots which I had bid on early but may not have bid on in the last few days.

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Posted By: doug goodman

Corey R. Shanus said "I might add that another approach altogether might be to after, say, midnight change the 10-minute rule to a 5-minute rule, and every 20 minutes knock 1 minute off it, with the understanding that after 1:20am it would stay at 1 minute. This way by 1:30am you'd be down to a 1-minute rule, everybody still bidding would be glued to their computer screens and the auction would probably be over very shortly."

Finally, a bit of sanity in the conversation. When bidding on an open ended auction, as when bidding on an ebay stlyed set ending auction, my purpose is to be the high bidder while not spending more than I feel the item is worth.

While I empathize with those who are not able to stay up until the wee hours to bid, the logical time to bid on an item, is as near to the end of the auction as possible. Living on the left coast helps me with that goal, but doesn't negate my logic.

In an open ended late night auction this means there are probably less bidders left, so less chance of being outbid, and as the clock on the wall clicks, other bidders are gradually lost to the late hour. This strategy worked well for me when I bought two lots of bound Sporting Life in the Clean Sweep late May auction, one which sold for less than 1% more than I had planned as my high bid. In retrospect I am very happy with the extra $69 I spend.

In an ebay style auction this means that the remaining bidders will have little, if any, time to enter a higher bid, and I won't have time to get "auction fever" and enter another bid. Auction fever always reigns in an open ended auction. This strategy works very well for me every day. Except for the occasional auction in which I am the only bidder, an early bid on ebay only serves to cost me money, or lose the auction, as other bidders have a chance to bid again. Say what you will about sniping, but it's the logical way to bid.

Steve Verkman said "Our goal here is not to make any money from this but rather to have the auction end earlier and not reward a similar group of bidders who bid very late in every major auction."

While I trust that Mr. Verkman is honest with his claim, I can't help but chuckle at the coincidence that his company does make more money.

I think that Mr Shanus hit the nail on the head. I would go one step farther by ending the auctions at noon, thereby giving everybody in all North American time zones the maximum chance of being available for, and able to last until, the end of the auction.

As for those who bid on more than one auction, the Clean Sweep method of extending all auctions if one auction receives a bid is, again, the most logical method to give everybody a chance to bid and maximize the auction house take.

Ultimately the highest prices are going to be realized by the auction house when the most bidders are available for the hammer fall, and that's the purpose of an auction.

Now I have to go snipe a filler quality 1958 Bob Hazle Topps card on ebay.

Best regards,
Doug Goodman

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Posted By: Steve

Corey and others,

Again, you guys make very good points and it is something as if to quote Churchill (The ten minute rule is the worst system, except for all of the others; the Churchill quote was Democracy is the worst system of government, except for all of the others).

We gave extensive thought to the idea of reducing the ten minute rule into smaller increments. We did not do this for two reasons: (1) One of the virtues of the ten minute rule is that it makes it very difficult to snipe. By making the rule smaller, 5 or 1 minute increment, this is to the great benefit of the sniper as a bidder could literally go to the bathroom for a minute and they lose the lot. (2) Call backs, which believe it or not people still do even at 3 AM, would to be feasible with such a short window. (3) Technical issues. A bidder could have a jam or slowdown on their internet service and they would then be out of luck.

Corey, your point is well taken about assigning a premium to the perpetual late bidders. The problem with this, and we have also thought about it, is that this could be seen as arbitrary, will encounter tremendous resistance as being unfair, and perhaps most importantly, bidders could then have a freind bid instead of them.

Our admitted flawed (but we feel best under the circumstances) solution is to give people a disincentive to bid very late.

As far as income (address to Jay and one other), the income to us from this will likely be very small and this is ENTIRELY in the hand of the bidders. If this becomes extensive, then this is not really working well and it will be re-evaluated!

Hope this fully addresses everyones concerns - Steve

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Posted By: scott brockelman

Perhaps it's been a while since I bid or won anything in Steve's auctions, But I see where they have listed the shipping on each lot. This is a fantastic idea, you know exactly what that cost will be up front. While minimal, there will be no surprises. I have won single cards(albeit high priced ones) and have been invoiced for as much as $85 shipping for them.

In addition they have a note that multiple wins will be discounted from the posted shipping costs.

Just thought I would note this, very nice to have things up front and visible.

Scott

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Posted By: eric p.

i totally agree with jay, mastro does have the best closing technique, i wish steve would hire someone professional to answer the phone and emails, the girl he has now has a bad attitude and lacks any kind of customer service skills, maybe it's just that time of the month for her.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Shipping was going to be more than that for the Plank I picked up for you from Sotheby's Scott.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

I believe it was nearly $200

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Posted By: Steve

Eric,

I was there when you called. I heard her side of the conversation but not yours. She was simply verifying your information as we make sure that all bidders have a real, verifiable address and phone number. Apparently you provided a cell phone number when you registered and did not want to give any information that we could confirm.

Comments like you made are really in poor taste and not appreciated. Making sure each bidder is a real person is essential to any auction and is in the best interests of all bidders in the auction. With the flood of auctions in the past few years, renegging is a real problem that is headache for all auction houses -- Steve

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Posted By: eric p.

steve, before you make a comment, you need to get your facts straight, since you don't answer your phone when i call, why don't you call me on my cell phone, you have the number.

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Posted By: Steve

Just a polite reminder to anyone interested that our current auction closes today. Initial bids need to be placed by 6 PM EST and the ten minute rule begins at 11 PM EST. It will be interesting to see when the auction ends with our new late night bidding rule at 1:30 AM EST.

Catalogs can be downloaded as a PDF file on our home page.

Thanks much,
Steve Verkman
www.cleansweepauctions.com