What would you do?

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Posted By: Bill Stone

These are assumed facts so please don't take them as true -they are for illustrative purposes only. While researching the ballplayers in the T210 set I did some genealogical research and was able to locate a great great aunt of Leo Angermeier who played for the Frankfort team.When I contacted her,Mrs. Angermeier was thrilled with the research I had done including the fact that Leo's dad was killed in a tornado.She told me a wonderful story that everyone had left the building but as Mr. Angermeier was leaving his hat blew off and when he went back in to retrieve it the building collapsed killing him. She then told me she had the family scrapbook of Leo and his brother Louis who also played in the Blue Grass League ( although he was not depicted on a card.) Well the scrapbook had photos, newspaper clippings and 24 pristine T210 cards( no Jackson or Stengel).They looked as if they had just been pulled from a pack of Old Mill cigarettes. She said " Please take it --I am 84 years old and no one else in the family cares about the family history and you obviously do".I told her they were valuable and I wanted to pay for them. Now at $240 a card that would be $5,760 but I am certain given the condition they would sell at a major auction for at least $12,000. Query--What would you do?

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

In this hypothetical, you have been offered the cards free and clear even though you have told her they are valuable, correct? Assuming she is of sound mind, it appears that you have no legal obligations. But I agree that some form of reimbursement seems fair.

Seems like you could do a couple of things:

1. If you were going to sell them through an auction house: take them now on a sort of consignment basis and tell her you will give her a percentage (50%?) of what they bring. You could draw up a simple contract on that basis, I guess.

2. If you would prefer to keep them for your own collection: insist that she take a substantial amount, say $2000-2500, which would help her out but still give you a good deal. In this case I think it would also be fair to then sell some of the cards to recoup your outlay, as long as you kept the bulk of them.

3. Don't call Al Rosen


Good luck--
Tim

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Posted By: E, Daniel

I like Tim's suggestion that you offer to consign them for her and then turn up with a hunk of change and a big smile....it will absolutely make her day!
Further, perhaps photograph the images from the scrap book and burn them to cd - with a copy to be given alongside the returns from the card sale. Showing that you've saved these memories going forward will likely make her happier than anything else..........

And by the by, it's always nice to see a person of conscience looking for the best way to 'do the right thing'.

Whatever you choose, I'd trust you to make a good decision.



Daniel

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm missing something here.

You start off by saying "these are assumed facts." How much of this story is true and how much isn't?

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Posted By: Leon

Very nice gesture shown here.....I am sure it will turn out well. Of all the poor stuff we hear about the hobby there is so much good stuff we never hear about. I can't even count the number of times when I have given, or been given something, and said to just do what you think is fair in the way of compensation. Recently a friend and board member, but infrequent poster, sent me a valuable card without me even knowing it and said just give him what I think is fair.

Bill- I think I can safely say that we all feel you will do what is right....good luck with the situation and thanks for being the kind of guy this hobby needs.....

regards

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Posted By: peter chao

Bill,

It's true that the old lady may know that the cards are valuable, but certainly she doesn't know they are worth approximately $250 each.

If she needs the money, the consignment to an auction house is a good idea. Then divide the money.

If she doesn't need the money, show her a price guide and either make her an offer or divide up the cards in an agreeable manner.

You are doing the right thing and sometimes that's hard to do.

Peter C.

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Posted By: JimB

It sounds to me like she is offering them to you because she thinks you would want to keep them, not auction them off to make money. She is giving them to you because you have shown genuine interest in her family history and are taken to be someone who would care about these items and treasure them, perhaps more than her own family members. If that is the case, selling them in some way seems a little crass. I would accept the gift and offer some $ to compensate her. I would then keep them in my collection. They would make a great addition with a wonderful story. Sometimes, as this woman seems to understand, it is about more than the money.
JimB

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Posted By: davidcycleback

You are essentially like a family member that she is giving the family memento. And she genuinely wants you to have them, as you are the only one who has expressed interest or knowledge in the her relative. There is a specific and understandable reason she is giving you the album. It was a gift.

I would tell her that the album has financial value due to the cards, and let her decide what she wants to do. If she wants to sell the cards for the money she can decide to do that. If she still wants you to have the album as the only person to be interested in the relative, you can consider it a gift to you. If you then wish to sell the cards and give her money from the sale, you can.

As long as she is informed that it has financial value and still gives it to you, you can consider a gift a gift. You aren't required to sell a gift and return money to the gift giver, in fact many would consider the practice rude. Duly note, however, that if she gives it to you as a gift, she likely is expecting you to keep the album as a family member would and not sell it the next day.

Realize she considered her living relatives (the folks who would inherit it) and designated you as the person who deserves the album. And her reasons for giving you the album seem sound. Old people like young folks who are interested and apreceate their history, especially when others aren't interested.

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Posted By: JimB

David,
Sounds like great minds think alike - and at the very same time.
JimB

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Posted By: Rob

if you took the time to hunt down and visit the ball player's family, you must've had some interest in the player and the history he left behind. I think I'd keep the scrapbook & cards and offer her some money. If you can't afford to give her $1-2k, then maybe sell what is least-interesting to you, give her the proceeds, and you keep the rest. Just my 0.02.

Rob

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Posted By: Jason L

besides, perhaps she is truly not interested in money, and in fact, having an unexpected windfall may cause her tax problems that she would rather do without...depends on her financial circumstances.
just another consideration.

The fact that you are thinking about it, and then going even further as to post the situation might be thought of a testament in and of itself -as to your morality. Cheers!

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Posted By: Rhys

Hi Bill

I have a question for you about Mr. Angermeier if you could drop me a line. I have been doing research on this league for the last year or so. I could not get a link to your e mail so please just send me your e mail.

Thank You

Rhys

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Posted By: davidcycleback

There was the true story of a waitress at a diner where an elderly nondescript man can in by himself for dinner and lunch every day. The waitress became his friend and at the dinner table would even him him fill out the government documents and medical forms he had troubles with. After he died, it turned out he had been a multi-millionaire and willed the bulk of his money to the waitress who had been so nice to him. Some of the man's family members contested, but, after hearing about the waitress's kindness and that she had been unaware he had money, the judge upheld the will.

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Posted By: Joseph

...I am 84 years old and no one else in the family cares about the family history...


Yes, but I can guarantee you that at least one of those uncaring family members cares about ten thousand dollars.

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Posted By: jay behrens

How can they be concerned or care about the value of that scrapbook if they don't care about it or know that it is worth anything?

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Gary Weatherhead

I congratulate you on trying to do the right thing by her and her family. Some dealers I know would not only take the cards for nothing but brag about having cleared a nice profit with no financial outlay. I would take the cards and consign them and pay her a fair portion for your 'find'.

Best
Gary

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Posted By: martindl

Nice story.

You've already done a right thing - you told her the album has value. Perhaps at 84 she has no need or desire for the money, in which case you should graciously accept the gift and tell her that you'd really feel better if she'd let you donate some money to a charity or cause of her choosing, in her name. Then donate whatever you feel comfortable with - it surely does not need to match the value of the cards, as the gesture is what counts.

Unless she has a need or desire for the money, then you should not consider auctioning or selling the contents. Tuck it away in your collection and somewhere down the road pass along your good fortune to someone as deserving as you.

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Posted By: Max Weder

Bill

One should always proceed with caution in accepting valuable gifts from un-related elderly people. There may be questions of capacity, and it is often amazing how relatives will suddenly be interested in an item, once it's true value becomes known to them, even after a gift is made. From a moral perspective, there is no question that you should fully advise her of the value of the items.

As an aside (and I realize you stated it was hypothetical), your fact scenario poses some interesting genealogical questions. You said you were in contact with the "great great aunt of Leo Angermeier". I believe that would be the sister of one of Leo's great-grandparents. If he was playing ball in 1910 or so, the family tree created by this relationship would have some unusual branches indeed for her to be the great great aunt and only be 84 years of age.

Max

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Posted By: Jay

I agree with David; the album with the cards was given to you as a gift. Although the cards have significant monetary value to most of the world, they only had sentimental value to this woman and, she presumed, to you. Selling the cards would send all the wrong signals. If your intention was to sell them then I would reconsider and respecfully turn down her gift. If, on the other hand, these cards were to become a meaningful part of your collection then their market value is secondary. Since you will not be turning them into cash they are in a way worthless(although in another way very valuable). Having said that, if you were keeping the cards, I would do something nice for the woman. Perhaps her house needs painting--arrange for that to happen as a gift. Perhaps you could arrange for her lawn to be taken care of. Perhaps she is lonely and you and your family could visit once in a while and provide some companionship. Payback doesn't have to be dollar denominated.

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Posted By: anthony

well, if you plan on keeping the cards until she passes...then i say, treat her to a "day out" or something, old people do get lonely and they love to talk. maybe a day of lunch and ice cream for an exchange of some more of that story.

if you plan on selling some, i'd re-itterate the value and tell her you will split it or donate some to a charity of her choice...if she still insists, then take the above approach...

a neighbor lady's (85 yrs) father who was an officer in the spanish-american war with cuba, hired me to be a handy man since her husband died 12+ years ago, although the jobs usually took 1/2 hour i'd end up spending 3x that just chatting and hearing her family history. she's moved into an assisted living and we still keep contact

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Posted By: David Hanvey

She is offering you the scrapbook as her family has no interest, and she believes you do and would take care of the items.

As some other poster's said, it sounds like she believes you will keep the scrapbook as you would appreciate it - not take it as a gift and turn around and sell it the next day.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"and in fact, having an unexpected windfall may cause her tax problems that she would rather do without...depends on her financial circumstances."

As a wise man once told me -- "be thankful that you are in a position to pay a lot of taxes." A financial windfall usually brings the good kind of tax problems.

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Posted By: Ken W.

Without intentionally hijacking the thread, how does everyone feel about stumbling onto a valuable treasure being "given" away at a yard sale or a flea market by someone you do not know at all? No sentimentality involved - just someone who has no clue as to the value of the cards. Isn't this every collector's dream? While its never happened to me, I have always felt that a flea market or antique shop deserves to take the loss - they should know their business better. But a private yard or garage sale is different. Taking advantage of innocent ignorance? Since I never sell cards, I feel that I would probably be saving some bits of history from the landfill, which is where they would be headed if I didn't pick them up. Better they be in someone's hands who will cherish them. But turning around and selling them for a HUGE profit would cause me some real soul searching, I think. Has this scenario ever happened to anyone here, and how did you handle it?

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Posted By: David Smith

This might be a little off topic (only in the sense that the cards were newer).

In the Spring of 2006, I was out yard saleing (sp?) on a Saturday morning. I stopped at a house, looked around and asked if the guy had any baseball items. He said sure and took me to the back of his garage and into a small storage room. This guy was in his late 60's or early 70's and I never heard how he got the cards but he had some newer baseball cards. Most of the cards were of Cubs players (1950's to 1980's) but he also had a complete 1972 Topps set in a binder. I asked if those were for sale. He said, "yes". I asked, "how much?" and he said "$40 dollars".

I didn't have that much on me and told him I had to go to the bank. After goinjg to the bank and getting the money, I stopped at another yard sale that had items I could sell on eBay. I spent all of my money plus had to go back to the bank again. That tapped me out for that week because I hadn't been paid for some items that I had sold plus, I had to save back to pay bills.

By the next weekend, I had the money and went back to the house and the people were gone. The sale had been a moving sale though the sign said only yard sale. I was going to give the guy $100 bucks because I figured a complete 1972 Topps baseball set in at least VG was surely worth $200 or $300 hundred dollars.

My idea was to compare those cards to my partial set, pick the best condition cards and thereby upgrade the set. The dupes I was going to offer as one lot on eBay and just see what they sold for. If the cards sold for more than $100 dollars, then I would have essentially upgraded AND completed my set for free.

David

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Posted By: davidcycleback

One thing about garage sales is that all items are priced very, very low so as to get the stuff out the house. You find stuff like dining room sets for $15 and working lamps for 25 cents. Bargains are the norm, and items that aren't bought are often donated or thrown away. Also, the items have typically been in the house for years, with much chance for value contemplation.

It's fair and good to ponder the moral implications when you see a 1933 Goudey Lajoie for 25 cents at a garage sale, but there's nothing wrong with getting Sonny's shoebox collection at a bargain rate. The primary object of the garage sale likely is to "get rid of stuff," and the house owners know their prices are below retail. If they found a Marc Chagall when cleaning out the closets, that was likely consigned to Sotheby's. The gold coins were kept for the grandchildren. The moldy box of baseball cards and the metal file cabinet with only a few dents, they go into the garage sale.

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Posted By: John H.

My brother-in-law offered me a bunch of 1960-61 Shirriff NHL Hockey coins when they were moving several years ago. He had shown them to me a few years before that and I was quite mesmorized by the lot. He had 58 out of the 120 in the set and most of the big names like Howe, Hull, etc. were included. He knew they had some value (the set books at $600) but he gave them to me because he knew I was a sports collector and historian and that I would enjoy having them while he would tuck them away somewhere, never to be seen again. I finished the set over the course of a couple of years and I can't envision ever selling them. If I ever did, however, I would make him accept half of the sale price in some form or another.

John