We All Know That Ty Cobb Is In the HOF...

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Posted By: peter chao

But does he meet the Hall's current moral character requirement. Of course, that assumes we know what the Hall's current moral character requirement is...by the way I'm not sure what it is...so let me know when you figure it out.

Peter

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Posted By: JimB

There was a great article in SCD last year about the potential misrepresentations of Cobb's character in the standard American lore. I don't remember all the details but it sounded like the biography that is the foundation of a lot of negative perceptions may have been partially fabricated to sell books. Apparently he did a lot of good with his money, including setting up scholarships for impoverished African American kids in Georgia. Others here may remember more of the details. I am not saying that he was an angel. He was certainly a fierce player (which I respect), but he may not have been the devil many think he was.
JimB

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

Great question Peter, I'm on it!

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

The witness does not understand the question, could you restate it?

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Objection, relevance!

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Posted By: peter chao

Peter S.,

Here it is in a nutshell, if Ty Cobb was going to be on the ballot for the first time next year, would he meet the HOF's moral character requirement.

Peter

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Objection, foundation.

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Posted By: peter chao

We got way too many attorneys on this forum...pretend that your not an attorney.

Peter

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Posted By: Mark

I recently read somewhere that Ty Cobb was not that bad at all - to the extent he had a few bad personailty traits, it's only because he was a victim of the violent times in which he lived and came from a broken home.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Check your facts Peter C., there is no "moral character" requirement. Only banishment [as in Joe Jax and Gamblin' Pete] precludes admission.

Frank

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Step 1 in pretending that you are not an attorney: put your hands in your own pockets.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I don't think Cobb's personality was an issue when he was inducted. With today's steroid users, it's not a moral issue, but an ethical and legal one. McGwire didn't get 23% of the vote because he was moody or a bad teammate; he was basically booted out because he cheated. Cobb was not well liked, his teammates pretty much hated him, but he played by the rules (save a few spikes flying now and then).

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Posted By: Mark

Japan actually has two baseball halls of fame. One grants automatic admission for certain lifetime statistical accomplishments (e.g., 200 wins) and the other emphasizs character and leadership above statistics.

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Posted By: joe brennan

If morality was a requirement to get into the HOF, there would be a short or shorter list. Being a good person has nothing to do with baseball skills, or any athletic contest for that matter. Does Babe Ruth and O.J. come immediately to mind?

As far as these lesser than perfect human's being idols or hero's for kids. Let the kids look no farther than their parents for people to look up to.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I'm not sure that the HOF's requirements are all that different now than they were in voting for the inaugral class. As Frank pointed out, if you were caught cheating and banned from the game you couldn't get in (Joe Jax) back then and if caught gambling and banned from the game you can't get in now (Rose). There must have been a reason Cobb received a higher percentage of votes than Babe Ruth despite the fact that Ruth was beloved and Cobb disliked by his peers. My guess is that Cobb would receive a higher vote total today than he received back then.

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Posted By: peter chao

I've just checked the Hall's requirements for election...it says character should be taken into account. I assume they mean good character.

I suppose this means that good character is one of the factors to be taken into account but it is not a requirement.

Peter

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Posted By: barrysloate

Psst Jeff- it's "inaugural" (I hold you to a higher standard )

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Posted By: jay behrens

Mark Fydrich had character. He's a first ballot shoe in

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Ahh, Barry, my kingdom for a 'u.'

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Posted By: peter chao

Jeff,

It's an 'u.'

Peter

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

Actually, a 'u' is correct. The letter 'u' begins with a consonant sound.

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Posted By: barrysloate

A "u" is correct.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Peter, your wrong.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Peter C., you get a "f" in grammar. I mean AN "f". LOL.

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Posted By: DMcD

its grammer

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Posted By: davidcycleback

If there was a strict morals requirement about 2/3 of the 1800s players wouldn't have made it: King Kelly, Anson, Delahanty, etc. Even Billy Sunday was a hootch hauser for most of his baseball career.

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Posted By: Pcelli60

With Cobb you had to know your place all times, the evidence points to this..I imagine Cobb a more complexed man past the public lore. Who really knew him?
His play on the field, and life off, has still kept him famous over the years, perhaps even relevant in its way! Forget the perceptions. Cobb is the stuff ledgend is made of...

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Posted By: steve

In his biography with Al Stump -

Cobb was very much against gambling/fixing games.

I don't think he picked bones with folks - unless they picked the fight first, then watch out !

He did go around with women, but so did Ruth to a large degree. Cobb has to get poor marks for being a family man.

Competitive like no other. Did try to hurt other players with his spikes flying - kinda like, I know I'm out, but I'll get the last laugh - taste these spikes - often poor sportsmanship - probably biggest rap against him.

Cobb gave money to old down and out ballplayers - kind of his own charity

His mom shot his dad - mistaken for intruder ???

Almost nobody attended his funeral, hmmmm.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I won't comment on all of the stories about Cobb's past which make him out to be a bad person. I will simply note that he did support teammates after their careers were over. Namely, Mickey Cochrane, Lu Blue and, I believe, George Dauss.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Sort of how Bonds supports his teammates like Mark Sweeney.

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Posted By: peter chao

Like the way Bonds supports Greg Anderson...by the way in the Bay Area think that Greg Anderson was paid to keep his mouth shut. Let's put it this way, Greg doesn't have the money to pay for the fancy criminal attorney that he has retained.

Peter

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Posted By: Marc S.

Could Greg Anderson afford your rates...?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I have a memory of reading somewhere that Geragos agreed to represent Anderson for free...for the publicity. I could be wrong but do not think so.

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Posted By: Cy

On the Glory of Their Times CD, Smokey Joe Wood states unequivocally that Cobb (along with Speaker and Wood) bet on baseball and the game definitely was not on the up-and-up. This came from the horses mouth.

Is gambling on one baseball game, that was somehow fixed, enough or does the Hall allow superstars to get a break?

Cy

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Posted By: peter chao

The interesting thing about the HOF admissions standards is they say admissions is based on a number of factors including character. But they never define character nor do they state it's importance relative to other factors. But just look at the past how the character factor was applied and look at how it's recently been applied.

Like people stated earlier Cobb got more votes than Babe Ruth so basically, character was not weighed heavily with regard to Cobb. But look at what occurred recently with McGwire. He was heavily penalized for being evasive in front of Congress. Doesn't that appear to be a different weighting of the character factor.

Peter

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Posted By: Anonymous

If your bringing up Cobb u might as well bring up "the Rajah" as well. Perhpas the games greatest second baseman of all time he also was one of the most controversial. Although he did not drink or smoke, he was a compulsive gambler. One writer characterized him as "a liturgy of hatred," and according to legendary baseball writer Fred Lieb, he was a member of the Ku Klux Klan. And ofcourse were all famlier with his disdain for the less skillful players around him. Point is, some of the greatest players of the game have lived some awfully checkered lives, its part of the history of baseball, for better or worse.

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Posted By: Ken W.

Does anyone know whether or not it is possible for the HOF to boot someone out that has already been inducted? What if evidence surfaced years later concerning cheating, gambling, etc.? Always wondered about that.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Peter, isn't possible the sportswriters are smart enough realize that Mac is a one trick pony? Basically, the only hits the guy got were HRs. He wasn't even a one tool player. He couldn't run, he couldn't field. Basically, all he could do was hit HRs. I'm not a big fan of Harmon Killebrew either, and grew up in MN, but at least Killer was playing 2B when came up and even played a little 3B.

Being able to hit HRs and do nothing else should not be a good reason to put someone in the HOF. If you are going to put someone in for doing one thing good, then lets put Jose Morales adn Rusty Staub in as pinch hitters.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: peter chao

Jay,

I think you hit it right on the nose, with McGwire it wasn't really a matter of character.

His only qualification for the HOF was his 500 plus home runs. His testimony before Congress cast doubt on his only qualification, that's the reason he wasn't voted in. It had little to do with his character.

Peter

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Posted By: peter chao

Ken,

It will never happen. After he was elected to the Hall of Fame, Gaylord Perry admitted to throwing the spitball. Nothing happened. Also, look at OJ Simpson. He lost a wrongful death action the Football Hall of Fame never talked about getting rid of him. Probably, Baseball Hall of Fame will follow their lead.

Peter

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Guys, McGwire's failure to gain entry into the Hall had nothing to do with his sole ability to hit homeruns; it was due to his embarrassing performance in front of Congress. Had he been as popular at the time of the vote as he was while on route to hitting 70 HRs that one season, he would have been elected on the first ballot.

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Posted By: barrysloate

McGwire also didn't miss gaining entry by just a few votes; he got his clock cleaned. The voters, who represent a large and diverse group, were near unanimous in that his taking steroids, and his performance before Congress, very well may keep him out of the Hall forever.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Saying that all McGwire could do was hit home runs is like saying Sandy Koufax had only two pitches.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Peter, true. If a guy can "only" hit homeruns and does so 583 times, that singular skill (along with the 1400 or so RBI that come with it) is enough to gain first ballot entry into the HOF. Unless, you're McGwire or Raffy.

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Posted By: howard

Big Mac played some 3B also. Killebrew was a bonus baby and came to the majors at 17 or 18. Like most bonus babies he was very athletic and the hope was that he would learn to play a difficult infield position which would make him even more valuable than he was. It turned out he was inept at the position and like so many other young "infielders" (Mantle, Murcer, Tartabul, etc..) he was moved to a less demanding position(s). The point is that neither Mac or Killer were good defensive players.

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Posted By: peter chao

Jeff,

I have trouble with what your saying. I agree that Big Mac's lack of candor before Congress was a big factor for his rejection by HOF voters.

But it's the HOF voters way of saying Big Mac you should have shown more guts before Congress. Mac you simply lacked character. Now if this condemnation of Mac's character had been applied to Cobb, Ty would have never gotten in on the first ballot.

Remember, popularity has never been part of the criteria applied by HOF voters. If it was, again Cobb would not have gotten in on the first ballot.

Peter

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Peter, I'm guessing, but perhaps the HOF committee refuseal to vote Mac in had more to do with his tacit admission of steroid use, i.e., cheating.

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Posted By: peter chao

Jeff,

Also remember that it took a long time for Killebrew to get into the Hall. Almost unprecedented for a 500+ home run guy and somebody so popular. Perhaps the voter's saw Big Mac as being the same class of ballplayer.

McGwire is deserving but not on the first ballot.

Peter

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Posted By: howard

That's a great point, Peter. Another 500 HR guy had to wait about ten years for induction was Eddie Matthews which was even more puzzling because at the time he retired he was arguably the greatest third baseman in Major League history.

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Posted By: Ken W.

I heard on a Cardinals broadcast that McGwire worked alot with Chris Duncan's hitting during the off-season. Duncan is the Card's pitching coach Dave Duncan's son, and is currently the only Redbird who can hit! I think Big Mac's reputation with everyone, including HOF voters, could take a big step into more positive territory, if he would begin to get more involved with the game - possibly even coaching - and not hide out anymore.