Does Warren Spahn Receive Enough Glory

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

I was just thumbing through my Baseball Encyclopedia and I noticed that Warren Spahn is 5th on the all-time wins list with 363. Then I realized tha Mr. Spahn is seldom mentioned among the all-time great pitchers. Even when I think about left-handers, I normally rank him behind Carlton, Koufax, and Lefty Grove. Should Warren Spahn receive more glory. Should Warren Spahn rank among the top ten pitchers of all-time.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike

he played in a small market. he played for some very poor teams. If he had been a yankee, he'd be glorifyed. And his stats would even be better than what they are. can you imagine him pitching with Mantle, maris, Berra and the boys hitting for him. ? One can only imagine. But then mathews and Aaron weren't too shabby either, I guess. He is very very under rated though. In my opinion.

[Archive]

Posted By: howard

He probably should get more credit. His "problem" is that he was incredibly consistent but never won more than twenty-three games in a season. It doesn't mean that he was not dominant but it does create that impression to some. The other guys you mentioned all had seasons of twenty-seven wins or more.

He might have won over 400, btw, had his early career not been interrupted by WW2.

[Archive]

Posted By: Justin

He did have Hank Aaron and Eddie Mathews playing behind for most of his peak. Plus he played in 3 world series, and the Braves were perennial contenders who probably should have had 4 or 5 pennants instead of just 2. I think the real question is imagine how many wins he would have gotten if he hadn't gone to war. He didn't win a game till age 25.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Justin,

My attitude has always been a ballplayer should never be penalized for serving their country. Just think with another 11 wins Spahn would have been third behind Cy Young and Walter Johnson on the list of all-time winning pitchers.

Somehow, though, I still think he doesn't quite fit on a list of the top ten pitchers of all-time.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: Justin

He had an outside shot at 400 too. I remember a quote by Bob Feller saying if he hadn't missed 4 full seasons he likely would have tried to get 400 wins. He retired relatively young and probably lost 75-85 wins due to WW2.

And I am not criticizing anyone for their war service. It's more a what if kind of thing.

Finally I agree that Spahn is questionable in the top 10.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rhys

Not War related, but how many games would Lefty Grove have won had he been able to leave the minors 5 years earlier?

I have often thought that Warren Spahn was underrated, but imagine Walter Johnson on a good team. The man lost something like 50 games in his career 1-0. I dont think there is any question that he was the best pitcher ever.

[Archive]

Posted By: Justin

I think it's either him or Roger Clemens.

[Archive]

Posted By: Phil Garry

Here is Mr. Spahn's Rookie Card:

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Phil,

I've never seen a '47 Sports Exchange Warren Spahn, thanks for showing it to us. Does it really have a thin red border on the outside edge of the front of the card.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: Pcelli60

No..and too many guys recieve too much!

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Evanov

Spahn is the winningest lefty of all time. He is remembered as a great pitcher. Not sure how one measures "glory."

Frank

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Frank,

Would you put Warren Spahn on your list of top ten pitchers of all-time.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter Spaeth

W. Johnson
Grove
Mathewson
Alexander
Young
Feller
Clemens
Koufax
Spahn
Seaver

[Archive]

Posted By: Ken W.

I'm always making lists like this in my head, and it is always tough!

Top 10 pitchers - all-time (in no order):

Walter Johnson
Christy Matthewson
Cy Young
Grover Alexander
Bob Feller
Warren Spahn
Satchel Paige
Sandy Koufax
Bob Gibson
Nolan Ryan

[Archive]

Posted By: dennis

warren spahn had STYLE. if you never saw him pitch try to find an old clip.if you saw him pitch you'd always remember that motion. top 10 ever,of course ,he won more games than anyone in the most competitive era ever. (except he did have his problems with those 50's dodger powerhouses!)

[Archive]

Posted By: Pcelli60

Yes, top 10. He has to be..Frequenlty 4 or 5 dead ball guys are listed. A great tribute to them..of the moderns..
Gibson, Koufax, Clemens,,but to me not Ryan! Dispite the no hitters and one hitters or the 300 plus or all those K's.No. Why not? Is it because in a one game situation I would not choose him to go?.Why does nobody list Whitey Ford but yes to Bob Feller consistantly? Lots of glory there..

[Archive]

Posted By: Bill Stone

I remember seeing him at the world premier of Eight Men Out in Indianapolis. By far the nicest memory was his smile when he gave up the home run to 75 year old Luke Appling in the first Cracker Jack Old Timers game in Washington DC in 1982.

[Archive]

Posted By: Neal

On top of being one of the greatest left handed pitchers to ever step foot on the mound, he was a true gentleman. I had been fortunate enough to meet him several times at many autograph shows. He was just a great man!

[Archive]

Posted By: Phil Garry

Peter:

Yes, the Spahn card pictured does have the thin red border around the photo.

[Archive]

Posted By: Larry

Spahn should definitely rank higher in greatness than Carlton.

[Archive]

Posted By: John H.

Spahn is absolutely one of the top 10 pitchers of all time and he was certainly better than Carlton. How can you argue with 363 wins and not getting the first one until he was 25? How about a 23-7 record at the age of 42 in 1963? The 1-0 16 inning classic that he lost to Marichal in 1963 is one of the greatest pitching duels of all time and it may be that that game finally finished him. He was terrific.

The fact that Spahnie never won more than 23 in a season makes his record all the more impressive just like Aaron's 755 homeruns are astonishing because he never hit more than 47 in one season. I love the guys that can be counted on year in and year out for an extended period.

My top 12 pitchers in no particular order and without a lot of thought:

Walter Johnson
Young
Mathewson
Alexander
Spahn
Grove
Clemens
Seaver
Feller
Maddux
Gibson
Randy Johnson


John

[Archive]

Posted By: T E

Warren Spahn had a horrible lifetime record vs the Braves' main nemesis, the Dodgers. I don't know what the final numbers were, but as of 1960 his record lifetime against the Dodgers was 14-30. To put that in perspective, the least number of wins he had against any other team as of that year was 32 against the Phillies. In 1959, when the Braves finished the season deadlocked with the Dodgers, resulting in a playoff which the Braves lost, Spahn was 0-5 for the year. Just one win, Spahnnie, and the Braves are in the series!

In 1957, Brooklyn's final year, when the Dodgers were in contention into September, Spahn had zero decisions against Brooklyn. Remember, teams played each other 22 times a year back then. Sounds like Fred Haney (Braves manager) knew something.

Killed the rest of the league, stunk against the Dodgers (the one team he needed to beat year in and year out), pitched fairly well in World Series (4-3), a real stayer career wise with that knuckler, but not an all-time great pitcher, at least in my book.

[Archive]

Posted By: John H.

Spahn threw a knuckler? News to me.

The Dodgers owned a lot of guys during Spahn's career. How many of those losses were 1-0 or 2-1? 363-245 speaks for itself.

John

[Archive]

Posted By: Justin

I know Connie Mack usually didn't pitch Grove against the Yankees. But I don't have his records against them.

[Archive]

Posted By: T E

That was his pitch. That is why he lasted so long.

Nolan Ryan struck out a gazillion hitters, fired 49 (okay, what was it, seven?) no-hitters, etc, but he is not an all-time great. Deserves to be in the Hall of Fame? Of course. But you can't list him in your top ten or whatever.

Spahnnie could not beat the one team he needed to beat, the Dodgers, to save his life. Yes, it is true, almost nobody beat the Dodgers back then. But couldn't he win ONE game in 1959 against them? 1957?

All right, now that I am done bashing Spahn, I would be remiss not to point out, if it hasn't been pointed out already on this thread, that if not for World War Two, Spahnnie would certainly have won well over 400 games, I guess that would kind of shut my mouth!

Edited to add-I see Howard mentioned that right at the top of this thread...

The Grove point with Mack is interesting one, I'd like to see the numbers, unfortunately, I don't have enough old Redbooks and greenbooks, the annual pubs put out by the two leagues.

[Archive]

Posted By: John H.

I don't think Spahn threw the knuckleball. Certainly not as part of his regular repertoire.

John

[Archive]

Posted By: T E

He threw the knuckler later in his career. That was all I ever knew him as, but that was at the end.

Edited to add...He extended his career by many years by adding the pitch...

[Archive]

Posted By: John H.

Maybe in 64 and 65 when he was pretty much done and hanging on. You'll have to give me your source because I'm still not buying it.

John

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

I know Carlton's training methods were crazy, but he was effective. In his best years he carried some pretty poor teams. He won 27 in his best year.

Careerwise he was almost Spahn's equal.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: T E

My addled old brain, but you're right, it was at the end of his career...

Here is a source that references Spahnnie adding the Knuckler...

http://z.lee28.tripod.com/sbnslegends/id26.html

Perhaps the most amazing thing about Spahn is his longevity. After beginning his career as a fireballer, Spahn fought off old age by learning new pitches like a screw ball and eventually a knuckler. After not winning a single game before his 25th birthday (because of military service), the ageless wonder won 177 after turning 35. On April 28, 1961, five days after his 40th birthday, Spahn no-hit the Giants. Just over a year later the veteran notched his 300th career win.

I was a young Mets fan when Spahnnie came to us in 1964. On opening day we had both Yogi and Spahn on the roster, ah, for a time machine...

Clearly, you'd think of the screwbal, first, with Spahn. Aw well, f--- it, I'll leave my mistakes posted as is, don't believe in editing them out.

I do stand by my comments about his inability to beat the Dodgers, would love to know his fiinal career numbers against them...

[Archive]

Posted By: mike

spahn is incredibly underrated, koufax( along with nolan ryan) are the most overrated) koufax had a five year career, he was a joke his first 5 years. coincidentally koufax's career took off when dodgers moved into dodger stadium in 1962, a ballpark that is known as a pitchers park. he had 160 wins, nuff ced!

[Archive]

Posted By: T E

In those five years he was the greatest pitcher ever. Lead the league in ERA in all five years. In six games in the World Series, his ERA was below 1.00! In the last four years, his record was 97-27. Spahn couldn't beat the Dodgers, Koufax beat everyone.

If it is longevity you want, Spahn is your guy. If it is one game for all the marbles, no one touches Sandy.

[Archive]

Posted By: dennis

all great pitchers beat bad teams....marichal/koufax/gibson cleaned up on the mets/cubs/astros.they really paddded their records vs. the bottom feeders. it should amaze no one spahn did the same. nobody(esp. a lefthanded pitcher) beat the dodgers in the early to mid 50's (except the yankees!)the dodgers were a great team and were loaded with rt handed power in a cozy ballpark.
1956 National Lg 93-61 (.604) NL 1
1955 National Lg 98-55 (.641) WS 1
1954 National Lg 92-62 (.597) 2
1953 National Lg 105-49 (.682) NL 1
1952 National Lg 96-57 (.627) NL 1
1951 National Lg 97-60 (.618) 2
1950 National Lg 89-65 (.578) 2
1949 National Lg 97-57 (.630) NL 1

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Evanov

Spahnie would be 8th or 9th on my all time list. Lefty Grove, Matty, Johnson and Clemens would be on top.

Frank

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob

What you might not know about Spahnie is that not only did he serve his country, he survived the bloodbath, being wounded, at the Battle of the Bulge. He was a true hero, not one of the many players who merely wore the uniform and played baseball for their post teams or shoveled sh$$ in Louisiana. Eddie Grant (who died), Ted Williams (whose plane was shot down in Korea) and Warren Spahn, among many other less noticeable names in MLB, were true heroes.
I had a chance to meet Spahn years ago at a card convention and he was simply great to talk to and it was great to listen to his reminiscenes.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob

Add Hank Bauer of the Orioles and Yanks as a player who was wounded in the action and also a real hero.

[Archive]

Posted By: T E

Spahnnie was a war hero, a war which, as has been pointed out, cost his career in the bigs several seasons. Clearly he would have been well past 400 wins. That makes it awful tough to deny him a place in the pantheon. I am bugged by his inability to beat the Dodgers (that 0-5 combined record in '57 and '59 really stands out), but I have to admit that I came into this thread biased based on that, and that everything else presented stacks up mightily against my bias.

The guy is a war hero, losing four years in which he could have become the second winningest pitcher of all time, a couple of Cy Youngs, a couple of no-hitters, a decent WS record, lead the league in strike outs and era several times...

So the answer to Peter's original question is, "No, he does not receive enough glory."

By the way, the one pitcher on the Braves staff who beat the Dodgers consistantly in the late 50s was Bob Buhl...

And Dennis is right that Koufax did clean up against the Mets and Astros and Cubs, but even without those teams, his winning pct is over .700 against the rest of the league in that span. And he was damn tough in big spots.

I only have a few old green books to go on. Does anybody know an online resource that gives a breakdown on pitchers lifetime records vs opponents? I searched Baseball Almanac and came up empty.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bruce Babcock

13 seasons with 20 or more wins. 382 complete games. 63 shutouts. Lifetime era of 3.09. A good hitting pitcher with a career batting average of .194 with 36 homers. War hero. Not many can match those acomplishments.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dylan

Someone made the arguement of why not Ford listed with Feller, and seeing as how Feller is listed around #5 on many of the lists above it makes me wonder how you can omit Bob Gibson completely. A lot of people have Koufax(if your going to include Koufax you should consider Dizzy Dean as well) on their list and Seaver gets no love. Seaver put up great numbers and did it a lot longer and is a 300 game winner. It seems the closer we get to the modern era the more impressive a guys stats have to be to even be considered. When in reality you cant compare dead ball pitchers stats to modern pitchers stats. But there's a few players who's stats fit right in in any era. Tom Seaver being one of them. And judging from the numbers it looks like Plank could get a little more attention when talking of all time greats as well. And when considering pitchers of the dead ball era there are some impressive 19nth century players who are overlooked as well.
(Sample stats from different eras HOF's)
Alexander 373-208 ERA 2.56
Plank 326-194 ERA 2.35
Mordecai 239-130 ERA 2.06
Bender 212-127 ERA 2.46

Grove 300-141 ERA 3.06
Hubbell 253-154 ERA 2.98
Dean 150-83 ERA 3.02
Pennock 240-162 ERA 3.60

Feller 266-162 ERA 3.25
Gibson 251-174 ERA 2.91
Ford 236-106 ERA 2.75
Seaver 311-205 ERA 2.86
Koufax 165-87 ERA 2.76

Pitchers from 19nth century
Keefe 342-225 ERA 2.62
Nichols 361-208 ERA 2.95(left ML Career early to play out west)
Clarkson328-178 ERA 2.81
Welch 307-210 ERA 2.71

[Archive]

Posted By: Ed

Spahn is analagous to Musial.

[Archive]

Posted By: Fred C

Ed, that's probably the best analogy we'll see. People always leave Musial off their all-time lists. Oh yeah, he's that guy that hit a ton for that team in the mid west... Spahn, oh yeah, he's that guy that won a ton for that team in the mid west. Could you imagine all the buzz about these guys if they were ex-Yankees? People may not realize this but Musial was one HR away in 1948 from leading the league in 2B, 3B, HR, RBI, B-AVE and Slugging%... but then again this is about Spahn - a pitcher that won over 20 games a year in 13 different seasons....

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Ed,

I like your analogy of Spahn to Musial too. Currently that's probably how sports fans view them. However, I would say that when Stan Musial was playing he was considered by many to be a better player than Ted Williams.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob

Stan Musial was one of those guys you wanted up in the bottom of the ninth with men on base and your team trailing by one run. A-Rod? He can hit 50 home runs in April and I still don't want him coming up in the ninth.

[Archive]

Posted By: Justin

You realize clutch hitting is a myth right?

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Justin,

I suppose clutch pitching is also a myth. It really doesn't matter what the numbers say. To the people that matter clutch pitching and clutch hitting is very real.

Peter