The 19th Century: Is it available for $100 or less???

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Posted By: Jason L

Hello to the All-Knowing Board,
My first several months here have been an amazing learning experience. Trying to digest all of this information on vintage collecting has been like trying to drink through a firehouse, but I have welcomed and enjoyed the challenge...it has been a hoot. So, thanks to all for providing such a great resource for separating me from all of my disposable income!

...and to those who have seen some of my posts, you will recall/recognize that I am interested in the Cubs (aka the Chicago Nationals, and fka the Chicago Colts and Chicago Orphans and Chicago White Stockings-the 1890s were a turbulent time for the Chicago baseball scene).

So I now divulge my new interest in 19th Century Cubs cards. I've never disavowed my ties to collecting the 1950s-1980s, -and I haven't even STARTED on the 1930s-40s! Nevertheless, now, while I am a third of the way into my T206 Cubs, I am finding myself being pulled back into the 19th century. Well, that's just great. Focused collecting was among my primary New Year's resolutions, and that is now out the window in early February as I respectfully ask the Board for its collective advice on this one question:

If I wanted to acquire (hypothetically, mind you, as this is not an offer to buy...that will go over on the BST once I am ready) a card or two of the Chicago Nationals players from the 19th century, can it be done for $100 or less, each, in Good-VG condition, with a nice image?
If so, what set should I look to?

(My first assumptions are the N172 commons, based upon my perusal of the SCD and this BST)
But I welcome any and all opinions on this, and if a respectable card can't be had for less than $100, please feel free to throw tomatoes and correct my expectations accordingly!)

I do now realize that was more than one question, so I apologize...I'm not too good with numbers...

I probably could have shortened this request, but then where's the fun? I didn't get to attend the NYC dinner and save the world...I had to resign myself to sitting in a cold and drafty Wendy's in Connecticut, teaching a secret handshake to a disinterested fry cook who had come out to mop the floors after a baked potato incident at the next table...

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Posted By: Tom Hines

Jason,
I am not the "know all" here but I can give you some examples from my own experience as a team collector. I collect only Cincinnati cards and the 19th century stuff is my favorite. The N172 Old Judges can vary quite drastically in price. I have picked up several g-vg cards lately on the B/S/T and ebay and the average price seems to work out to $150-$250 each. Of course rarity and interest play a lot into it so there is no "one" set price for any of it. Other issues usually get a premium. The N300 Mayo Cut Plugs can run about $175 (on a great day) to $500 for some g-vg cards. The real "key" to it is patientce. The cards will show up (well unless you are looking for an N172 Anson in uniform). If you are set on staying in the $100 or less range you are going to find a few (and I mean a very few) cards in the p-g range that might go for that little (I have seen and sold some N172's in poor condition for $55-$85 each).
I am sure there will be others to chime in here but these prices are from most of my recent findings (within the last year I have sold over 30 N172's and 10 N300's and purchased 8 N172's and 15 N300's). Hope this helps.

Tom

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Posted By: joe

Tom, is right, I collect Detroit players and to get any Old Judge for $100.00 is impossible for me.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

One key to the question was IMAGE QUALITY (nice image). Here's a link to a card that was skinned and given an AUTHENTIC label. The over all presentation of the card (minus the backing) is very appealing. The price was $190. Image quality can and will have a great impact on the sale of an N172, whether the card is skinned, G-VG or worse. I've seen cards graded "1", "1.5" and "2" by SGC that had superb image quality but with some type of back issue/problem. Those are the cards that will sell for over $100 without much problem. To answer the question about $100 buying a G-VG card with a nice image. Not too many to be found at that price unless there are some serious issues with the card. Good Luck.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1887-Old-Judge-N172-Hardy-Richardson-SGC-Authentic_W0QQitemZ180081171704QQihZ008QQcategoryZ 86839QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: Jason L

and I'm not overlooking another set, right?

If it's affordable 19th century, it's going to be N172s, right? I don't want to overlook opportunities in other sets, if you think they may be more appropriate...

thanks again

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Posted By: bill

you might look into buchner gold cards
when you can find them they can be had
usally are in f-g condition

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Posted By: Richard Masson

I have a number of Chicago N172s. They would probably average closer to $200 each. Contact me if you have an interest.

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Posted By: Tom Hines

I am not sure about the Buchner's going for $100 or less. I have not seen many to speak of but would probably buy all I could find at those prices. The image quality will be the biggest influence for the lower grade cards. I too have seen some 1's and 2's N172's with nice images that have gone relatively high. But in answer to your question, the N172's will most likely be your best bet for value. There are still some good deals to be had (just takes some time to find them). I think the more realistic way to approach your 19th Century want list would be to narrow down which set you like the most and then follow them for a while and see what the market is doing. If you decide you like the N172's then a more practical price cap would be around $200 to $300 for some nice g-vg with good images. You will be buying less cards but they will most likely present well and you will slowly build a very nice collection.
Trust me, it takes a while. I just finished the 3 Cincinnati cards I needed for the N300 Mayo's and it only took 5 years to do it!
Good luck collecting!

Tom

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Posted By: Matthew

It can be done but patience is required. I picked this up a couple months back for $75. This one is obviously not in VG condition but it has a nice image. I've seen some cards "graded" a 3 or 4 that don't have a picture as nice as this. Does anyone else have a problem with professionally graded Old Judges that don't seem to take the image into account (such as faded pink pictures seemingly overgraded)?

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Posted By: Jason L

the opinions are much appreciated

I agree, enjoyment is in the proper setting of expectation levels

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Posted By: Tom Hines

Matthew,
I too have seen some rather unattractive Old Judge 3's and 4's. They might have nice corners and backs but the images are sometimes very light or pink. I prefer to buy Old Judges raw because I don't like paying for a 4 and it looking like a 1. As an "armpit collector" I will even buy the skinned ones if they present well. I have been lucky lately and have found several Cincinnati cards with nice images for decent prices. It all pays off with patience.
Of course waiting around for the N173 cabinets is another story on it's own!

Tom

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Posted By: bill

Tom
what I meant by buchners is that there are
only 9 different and 3 variation and when they are in bad shape
they can be had. Problem is anson clarkson sunday command a premium
the old judges have so many it'll be hard just figuring out
all the chicago players

bill

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Posted By: Dave

My advice is to buy ungraded Old Judge cards. I have found that prices seem to skyrocket for graded cards no matter what the grade. For instance, I bought a $10,000 Kelly card for $150 from an antique store here where I live. The card would have probably been graded in the 3-4 range by PSA. That same card can sell for thousands after it's received the 4 grade. I like to collect Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and Louisville players from the Old Judge set, and have had a lot of luck buying privately from other collectors, and buying from the local antique shops. the cards I pick up mnow and again on ebay I probably overpay for, and I have been shill bid on several N172 auctions since Christmas time.

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Posted By: Tom Hines

Bill,
I get ya. I have very limited knowledge of the Buchners as there are no Cincinnati cards (at least none that I have ever seen). You are correct about tracking down Chicago players in the Old Judge set. I know that Cincinnati alone has 21 different players (not even going to talk about all the variations!). I don't know how many Chicago players are pictured in the Mayo Cut Plug set but that should be a bit easier (except of course the Anson as usual). Of course the cards would be more exspensive. Given the amount of cards and price the Buchners might be the best way to go so yes I agree with you on that one.

Tom

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Posted By: Joe_G.

Jason, I think you could very much enjoy collecting Chicago Old Judges as there are many different players & poses represented. Given your budget, you might want to consider narrowing your collecting scope to a more specific subset of Chicago cards.

For example, you could go after just the 1887 '0' numbered cards which would exclude Anson (not issued card until 1888), the 3 script cards of Kelly (King Kelly has 3 "script" poses with Chicago and 7 "short number" poses with Boston), and the somewhat difficult "short number" poses of McCormick. (note Kelly went to Boston & McCormick to NY Mets for 1887, but the early issue of the script and short numbered Old Judges show them with Chicago).

Such a focus ('0' numbered Chicagos) would take many of the expensive cards out of the picture but still leaves plenty to strive for. Who exactly is left?, well the following 12 players:

Fido Baldwin
Tom Burns
John Clarkson (HOFer)
Tom Daly (see example above, a beautiful "0433" numbered Chicago)
Del Darling
Silver Flint
Emil Geiss
Fred Pfeffer
Jimmy Ryan
Marty Sullivan
Billy Sunday (popular, but cheaper than HOFer)
Ned Williamson

You could first strive to collect one of each player then move onto poses if you wish. These 12 players were issued a total of 63 "0" numbered cards (average of just over 5 poses per player).

Pros to collecting this way include a common theme (all have the same background), are among the more plentiful Old Judges, and have an interesting Goodwin & Co. numbering scheme in nice blocks of numbers (0372-0389, 0430-0439, 0442-0465, 0470-0480 - maybe I'm strange but I think it's neat to take a set that was numbered by the manufacturer 120 years ago, distributed one a pack, and pull them back together).

Just food for thought, you could make each purchase as the money allows. You could probably complete the 12 players within 1-2 years if you accept low grade cards and maybe splurge on a Clarkson & Sunday.

Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: Jason L

thanks a TON for all the good info and thoughtful posts...very helpful to a newbie in the era...