Lelands still using the "old" auction format

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

Last night was a painful reminder of why people do not like the ten minute rule on the entire auction. Lelands had some nice material in it and I was trying to win a 19th century team cabinet. I was high on it until 2:20Am. Living on the Eastcoast is such a dis-advantage for these style auctions. The Hunt auction that ended last night, at least went off at a reasonable time by ending each lot seperately.

I know there are absentee bids you can leave, but I do not practice that with ANY auction company. I've heard too many stories from the flies on the wall in the companies.

I spoke my peace now and can move on...

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Posted By: andybecker

fwiw, i won a leland lot for less than my max bid.....but i agree jc, i am very skeptical in leaving "max" bids.
in this particular case, i needed sleep more than money ....but i was pleasantly surprised this morning.

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Posted By: Steve M.

What does that "10 minute after no bidding on ALL (emphasis added) lots" mean? Seems to me it could go on forever. I checked the bid grid and the lots I was interested in all appeared to have closed since it showed final prices including the 17.5%. Woke up only to find that one of the lots actually sold for more.

P.S. JC, you should just move to the West Coast

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Posted By: barrysloate

Is it better to leave a max bid and pay a little more than you might want, or choose not to leave one and lose the lot?

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Posted By: martin dalziel

I still don't understand who the '10 minutes on everything' format benefits - certainly not the bidders and I think it especially hurts consignors, because a lot of bidders have the same thoughts re. not leaving max bids and thus get tired of staying up and just give up.

I have won items on Lelands before where my max bid was not met. I got shut out on a photo Thursday but that was just a case of my max being quite a bit under someone elses.

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Posted By: andybecker

it's the way old auctions were run. if the phone didn't ring for ten minutes the auction ended....meaning all lots close at the same time.
on one occasion, i called lew lipset late to bid some lots and he told me that the phone hadn't rang for nine+ minutes. he took my bids, but he wasn't pleased....he wanted to go to sleep too.

i much prefer the new format of closing lots individually. imo, it's a lot more fair....your not staying up all night, and if there something two people really want....they are forced to bid vs. trying to outlast the other bidder.

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Posted By: Jeff O

For what it's worth, I won two lots, both for under my max bid.

That being said, I agree with the sentiment that the 10-minute rule format sucks. I too was leary about leaving max bids, but was happy with the result.

Jeff

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Posted By: Sean Coe

I used to try and go to sleep for a few hours, wake up and see where my bids were. Now I just leave a max bid and let the chips fall where they may. This auction I won 4 of the 6 lots, with only one reaching my maxium bid.

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Posted By: leon

I placed 2 bids while at work yesterday that I was comfortable with....and literally forgot about them until I read this thread. The auction email is linked to my work so I got no notifications. I just checked and found I won the Harringtons Ruth card.......that might make it into my personal collection as an upgrade. As far as the format it didn't matter to me...I was done where I was at, early yesterday. That might be my best strategy yet, however if there was something I had to have I would have played the game.....

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Posted By: bruce dorskind

I, too, agree that the Leland's lots never seem to close.
Watched the end of the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim-
Yankee game and Lelands went on well past the game
and the replay of the game. I checked at 3:30 AM and the
auction was still open.

On the plus side, I managed to win 3 of 4 lots
and two of the three lots were at less than my maximum
bid.

My experiences with maximum bids varies with the auction
house. At Robert Edwards Auctions and Goodwin Auctions
when I have won it has always been at less than the maximum

Winning at Mastro is such a rare thing, that I have had
to go to the maximum. However, I believe that Doug Allen
runs a fair auction...and I have never worried about being
bid up.

There are a few other companies, where this was clearly
not the case.

Bruce

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Posted By: Doug

I too was watching the Yankees/Angels game (Go Angels!). I too was trying to make it to the end of the Lelands auction . . . didn't happen, but I think only one of seven bids was maxed out. The others were under the max, some comfortably.

Doug

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Posted By: JimB

In general I appreciate the new way that Mastro is doing it, but there was a problem this time. I knew when they put the 31 E93 lots together that they would be the last to close. When cards in there went past where I wanted to, it was too late to shift to plan B because 95% of the other lots were already closed. It does not allow for a change of strategy. Probably if they did not have 31 lots grouped together and all the lots were individually on the same playing field clock, so to speak, they would have gotten more bids on other lots. I understand why they did what they did with that group, but it was not without its problems. I am not longing for the long nights of old. Just a comment to consider.
JimB

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

I was high bidder on a $7500 lot at 3AM NY time when I went to sleep. This morning I see that I was outbid. Not happy.

Frank

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Posted By: barrysloate

As an auctioneer myself I am amused by this discussion. People stay up to all hours sacrificing a night's sleep and don't win the lots anyway. Isn't it better to leave a ceiling at 11:00 and get to bed?. By the time the auction reaches 3:00 AM, you are probably so frustrated that you find yourself bidding higher than the ceiling you were thinking of leaving at 11:00. And if more people left ceilings, auctions wouldn't go until 4:00 AM. Everybody is trying to be the last bidder and that just keeps it going longer. It really is a kind of humorous Catch-22.

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Posted By: andy becker

barry, it's about trust. most people, myself included, are reluctant to trust anyone who inherently has a conflict with their interest.
and there has been enough accusations to warrant this level of distrust imo.

but, i do agree with you.....if you stay up until 3am, you are more likely to bid higher than you rationally would.

like i said earlier, i much prefer when lots close individually.....

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Posted By: barrysloate

I agree completely that bidders are afraid of being taken advantage of when they leave ceilings, but I am willing to bet that the bidder who is reluctant to leave a $1000 ceiling bidder early in the evening finds himself up at 3:00 bidding more than that $1000. And if five people stay up all night to be the last bidder on a lot, guess what- four of them won't be. They are going to get topped anyway. So they have lost a night's sleep without reaching their objective. Believe me, I've been on both sides of an auction and understand what people are saying. It's just that it doesn't always make that much sense.

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Posted By: quan

barry will you be running another auction? seems like the big houses like mastro and rea dominate the market now with their array of big items but i still enjoy the "mom and pop" (meaning friendly, cozy, smaller collector lots that most can enjoy) auction houses like yours and seth's 19th century only or the ccsa by the burks...

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Posted By: Cobby33

Given that I live on the West Coast, I'm less concerned with the time (although I do like to think I have a life and better things to do than sit in front of my computer all night continuing to bid).

IMO, I think the "10-miute until eternity" rule sucks and it's nothing more than greed on the part of the auction houses to squeeze every last penny that they can (and I'm sure the consignors don't mind). Why not follow the traditional auction format (that eBay follows) and just end it already!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Quan- I'm thinking of doing one in November but it sure is tough getting material. I'll have to see how things go. Thanks for asking.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Didn't win this time but didn't obsess at the computer either. My last mastro lot was won well below my max; obviously an honest system

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Posted By: Cobby33

With all due respect, each of the auction's systems may be "honest" in general, but all are susceptible to the same shill'ing as eBay. I doubt every lot in every auction is free from bidding fraud.

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Posted By: barrysloate

You know, even if an auction house forbids consignors to bid on their own lots, as virtually all do, a consignor can always ask a friend to place a bid or two on his behalf. In the end, shilling is nearly uncontrollable and virtually impossible for an auction house to detect. Same thing happens all the time on ebay- and what can a seller do when he doesn't even recognize who the bidders are?

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Posted By: Steve

Let me first make it clear that I am not accusing Lelands of anything.

Barry, there is no way to 100% stop the practices you refer but I can tell you that we CLOSELY monitor all bids, especially of new bidders. Twice in our history a "friend" of a consignor has registered and only bid on items from that consignor. In each case, we banned the bidder and removed all bids. It is like anything else, if you are serious about solving the problem (as opposed to giving it de facto support), you can greatly contain the problem.

Also, my experience with some of the auction houses if that they will not "run" people up on lots under $2 or $3,000 but rather it is on the expensive items (like a certain card discussed extensively in another thread) that these things are more common.

Just my thoughts,
Steve

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Posted By: barrysloate

Steve- I am sure you as well as most auction houses are trying to keep everything on the up and up, but it is impossible to catch everybody. What if you suspected someone was bidding for a friend and it turned out he actually wasn't and you wrongly accused or banned him? You would lose a customer. It's a fine line. I think some bidders may telegraph to auction houses that they will not stop until they win their lot, or simply have a reputation for bidding that way. Those bidders are most susceptible to the run up. If bidders kept lower profiles and exercised more discretion they would improve their chances in an auction. As far as leaving ceiling bids, it's easy to check with fellow collectors and get a general feeling about how the auction is being run. I'm not saying every house is squeaky clean, but I think a good deal of the time bidders are just paranoid and trust noone. Maybe this is a good thing, but I'm not sure.

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Posted By: Richard Masson

The "old" format is a holdover from the pre-internet days of telephone bidding to prevent an auction ending with a busy signal. It has no place in the digital era.