Time to come clean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: E, Daniel

This post is in reference to all the truths half given, not stirred, that I read on this site. From the Gretzky Wagner, to card doctors, to dealers getting preferential treatment from Grading companies, yada yada yada.
It could all be true, but please, Leon, please, Barry, please anyone claiming knowledge, enough with the smoke and whispers.
Be men. Be women. Be courageous. Don't just tap away on your keyboards about creating super committees to vet the industry and save it from the grubby handed. Do something real. Say something honest that lets us all participate in protecting our passion.
Give us the real story, honestly told, events you would stand up in court for and vouch to be true. You would be amazed at the power of the truth. You would be surprised at how rarely those who are doing wrong will submit their criminality to the glare of public reckoning, because lies stink and everyone can smell it a mile away.
I'm getting awfully sick of reading posts from people who are, or claim to be - "in the know", and get constantly left at the alter waiting to hear people name names, or give complete and accurate accounts.
I really do respect all of you as hobbyists, collectors of great vintage or recent comers, and know that you have poured over cards, and writings and such, to become expert. But this whole thing of saying - I know people, who know people.....Or I am a dealer, and see it first hand.......
AND THEN JUST SAY NOTHING. IT'S ABSOLUTE BULL***T.

Do you really know, or have you been told something. If you know, then libel is not possible because, and here it is, IT'S THE PLAIN HONEST TRUTH.

So, spare me the - "I was collecting in the 70's and 80's and never ran across perfect vintage looking cards", ergo they do not exist.
Please, for a start, you were considered a bit of a dill - or nerd - back then, and collecting things outside of art and furniture and ancient baubels and statues was not exactly celebrated. Therefore, it seems incredibly likely that much of what was known of extant copies of cards was a mere layer of the cake, not the 4 tiered wedding monstrosity we know today.

I've heard repeatedly that EX, or EX-MT, or at best NRMT, is truly the best shape a card could possibly survive the last century in...
Umm, but isn't ex-mt a card that has all four corners, unbroken edges, lacking surface damage, and usually a decent image? How giant a stretch is it for a card to survive in just slightly better condition and make it to nrmt-mt? Seriously. Is it so damned hard. It made it to this point in the first place. Does every card have to look like a kid owned it and kept it in his back pocket? And just for illustration, and bravely making fun of myself at the same time, the stuff I own, whether furniture, or shoes, or eating plates, or my stereo, or cards, or whatever, I keep in the absolute best condition I possibly can. And that's pretty good. I'm anal. No worries there, and many people would look at my stuff and think it never got used.
Not true. I'm just awfully, awfully, protective of my stuff. Comes from growing up reasonably poor, is how I like to catagorize it.

So maybe, just maybe, an ADULT, with tendencies to keep things in fine order - was an original owner of some sportscards, and passed them down some 50-60 years later to a son or daughter who knew their parents tendencies and so barely breathed on the item from that time forward. Is it so unbeleivably hard to imagine?

I won't discount that shysters have been at play in the industry.
Or that others who make money from the hobby have let go of their ethics in search of gain.
But the posts you guys write, so plaintive and provocative, so bordering on the hysterical that images of chicken little are stirred when painting your pictures..........with these half spoken whispers of subterfuge, and criminality, that I just want to.....aaarghh!!!

It's absolutely aggravating.
So come clean.
Tell us all the truth.
Be better than the people you are protecting by not naming them.
Help the hobby.
Help me. I promise I'll help in return. I think everyone will.

And if you won't, just plainly because it would hurt your ability to continue to buy and sell these pieces of cardboard, or tarnish your image in the hobby's community with these mega dastardly criminal players - and that is what they most assuredly would be if what you hint at is true, then you are no better than them and should not claim a pulpit here to preach from.


Sincerely
Daniel

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Posted By: Paul Moss

"So maybe, just maybe, an ADULT, with tendencies to keep things in fine order - was an original owner of some sportscards, and passed them down some 50-60 years later to a son or daughter who knew their parents tendencies and so barely breathed on the item from that time forward. Is it so unbeleivably hard to imagine?"

As it so happens, there is a coin collector on the CU boards who is in his 30's that recently came into possession of his father's AND grandfather's card collections. The grandfather's cards ranged in condition from PSA 1's through 8's, the higher grades assigned to the later cards from the 30's, with the majority being nice 6's. His 33 Goudeys, including the Gehrigs came back as 6's. The father's consisted of primarily late 50's, early 60's which even generated a couple of 1961 PSA 10's which I sold for him a couple of months ago. There were also many 1959 PSA 9's that surfaced from this hoard. These cards were submitted by this coin guy, and until now, had never been touched by anyone with any card knowledge. Has to give one some faith in the system.

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Posted By: peter ullman

I've been a collector since the mid 70's...and...I'm ashamed to admit, but...I've tried to erase pencil maeks from a few cards in my day. I also had a patient of mine remove scotch tape remants from the corners of my Roger Maris rookie card!

Pete Ullman...guilty as charged

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Posted By: John J. Grillo

Daniel...I really do not think it's necessary for everyone to spill their guts out about what they know or might know. First, you kind of answered your own question with the statement that you never ran across perfect-looking vintage cards 25 years ago or so. I agree for the most part. There will the occasional high end vintage card here and there, but with the amount we're seeing in recent years, it should send all kinds of "Red Flags" in someone's mind. Without knowing any specifics I never buy high graded vintage for those same concerns as you feel.

Second, I ignore vague references about what someone may know or may have heard from someone else. Maybe I am wrong here, but I just do not give much credence to these type of comments.

This should be a common sense hobby; however, there will always be people who blindly buy certain cards without applying some research and critical thinking.

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Posted By: Joann

I think that by being very clear as to the limits of their actual knowledge, these people ARE coming clean! It would be the height of irresponsibility for any of those that have commented on the PSA 8 Wag to say or even suggest that they know something to be absolutely true when in fact they do not have that first-hand knowledge. To make such definitive statements without proper foundation would be NOT coming clean.

I think that any of these people would probably jump at the chance to publicize this if they had the proper basis in knowledge to do so - for all of the benefits to the hobby such action would bring. They are exercising admirable restraint and responsibility by being so careful to avoid presenting anything as fact known to them when it is not.

Joann

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Posted By: barrysloate

Daniel- first and foremost, that's a lot of exclamation points. Getting to your question, I usually deal in mid grade cards and only occasionally in high grade ones, but from what I hear, and from my many years in the hobby, it appears that very skilled paper conservators are using their talents for bad things. Some are so successful that their work is getting past some of the graders. I couldn't tell you which cards or how many, and doubt if I saw an altered one I would necessarily be able to detect it. It's just that these rumors are growing and more people seem to be aware of this phenomenom. That's all I know, I'm not hiding anything.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

John, I used the parenthesis to show that the statement is made by others, not myself. I don't subscribe to the theory that a handful of enthusiast collectors from that period - 70's / 80's - had such complete knowledge of vintage card stocks that they can make that kind of statement.

Secondly, Joann, I agree with almost everything you write, but wow, find your post disturbing.
Firstly, Leon and others have described themselves as 99% sure of the wagner being compromised. 99%. How does that possibly stand as a limit in knowledge?
How sure is anyone in this country who has faith in a higher being that such an invisible creature actually exists? More than 99%??????? Really? And yet the government, and lawyers, seem reasonably unconcerned about prosecuting such hypothesising and the force feeding of its tenets to millions of children.....
How sure are you that the earth is round? Ever been out in space yourself for first hand knowledge?
When you squish an ant, how much do you know about what goes on inside the ant at the time?
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Thats why when information is passed out to the public as authentic and worthy of being included into our vernacular, they sign their name at the bottom of the paper. And we get to judge their likely rightness, from their references, their points of study, their process in developing the understanding, and on and on and on.

The point is, that in these snippets of revelation, most recently from Barry about card substitution and tampering/alteration, and the Gretzky wagner debate shared in by Leon, both have claimed more than passing rumors to their ears. EVEN IF NEITHER WAS PRESENT TO SEE SUCH ACTIVITIES, LEON AND BARRY BOTH CLAIM TO KNOW DIRECTLY INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE - AND CONFERRED THAT INFORMATION ON TO THEM! So, tell us the names of the people who were supposedly at the activity and told you so.
Tell us the truth.
Otherwise, they are not being responsible, but are merely part of the cover up.


Sincerely
Daniel

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

As I stated in another thread yesterday, and now the accusation is being made explicitly, any suggestion that Barry or Leon or anyone else is part of a coverup just because they have heard rumors about things or have some second or third hand indirect knowledge is just plain stupid and irresponsible. Who the heck are you to judge them, Daniel? Give me a break and give us all some peace. EDITED TO ADD I have heard rumors about people who might have altered cards. In fact I consider my sources reliable and am pretty sure the rumors are true. But I am not going to go on a public forum and name names. Am I part of your coverup too?

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Posted By: E, Daniel

And I didn't know my incessant posting was not affording you peace.

It seems to me that at least 50 or 60 other people in another thread currently running have had their say. Some with the exact same sentiments as those I've voiced.
Sorry to have burned your ears with mine.
I guess I should just turn tail, hang my head, and accept your admonishment.
After all, you are the obvious spokesman for what is the right thing, or wrong, to post on this site.

And I don't need to judge.
Peoples actions, and strength of character to do what is both right AND unpopular or difficult, is how we are all judged.

So, I'll keep naming the bully in the schoolyard, the restaraunt passing off old food, and all the fudgers in this world who think that it is ok as long as you get away with it.

You do what you need to do, Peter.


Sincerely
Daniel

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Posted By: John S

Barry is a true hobby professional who, like many other collectors, is concerned about the current state of affairs. It is the money that drives people to commit acts like trimming cards. Divulging the identity of one or two individuals will not stop that from occuring. What will you ask for next...footage of the event? Whether it is the PSA 8 Wagner or a T206 common it is happening because it equates to $$$. By calling out Barry you put him in a bad position. He has no responsibility to identify individuals and it would not improve the hobby. I think you know that. What are your true intentions and motivation for this post Daniel? Protecting an investment?

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Just my sense of justice.

And how does exposing wrongdoers not help the hobby rid itself of wrongdoing.
Don't you believe that seeing a couple of high profile or low profile hobbyists acting CRIMINALLY get blasted for it, and hopefully prosecuted along the way, would straighten-up many considering such acts?

I guess I truly believe in justice must not only be done, it also must be seen to be done.

My last response, so, go ahead and make me out to be in the wrong for asking for the honest thing, the right thing, to be done. I'm happy with where I stand.


Sincerely
Daniel

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Posted By: barrysloate

Just to clear my name so that I am not being considered part of a conspiracy (what conspiracy?) there have been articles written, among them in a back issue of The Old Judge and in issue #7 of VCBC (I know, that's the toughest issue to find) that describe the work paper conservators can do to make baseball cards look mint. Since these are articles they are part of the public domain and accessible to anyone. Assuming there are more than a few people with this skill, it's reasonable to assume not all are revealing their work and are using it for profit. That's not a conspiracy, just recounting what I have read. Try to get someone who has issue #7 to photocopy that article. I am on vacation now and don't have access to my back issues.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Daniel, your idealism is admirable, but your claims of moral superiority are misplaced. Be careful who you condemn. By the way, since you speak of criminal prosecutions, as a lawyer, I would be interested to see the statutes that criminalize the selling of altered baseball cards, and if there are any (I know there is something in the California Code but not sure if it is a civil or criminal provision) what evidence do you suppose it would take to convict someone beyond a reasonable doubt?

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Posted By: jay behrens

I got out of the hobby completely in the early 90s. Shortly before getting out, I had heard from very reliable sources that the Wagner had gone through a metamorphasis, going form a caterpillar to a beautiful butterfly. The 2 people that told me about this are beyonf repoach in this hobby. I do not out my sources because it is up to them to tell their story as they have first hand knowledge. Would I rpefer these people step forward? Yes, but they have their own reasons for not doing so and it's not my place to question their action, although it disappoints me.

Jay

A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: Joann

Daniel,

I edited my original post to delete a middle paragraph. It may have been better if I'd left it in. To paraphrase, it said:

I am convinced of certain things to the core of my being, because I have been told these things by people I trust completely. But it would still be both irresponsible and misleading if I were to take this assuredness I feel based on relationships and trust, and relay it to an unknowing third person as a fact that I actually know. This third person does not know (or, thereby, have reason for great trust) the person/people that I listened to in forming my conviction, and therefore the third person should have the option to accept or reject this hearsay independently. If I present it as fact I know, I deprive the listener of the opportunity to form an opinion based on the truth (which is that I heard something, not that I know something).

This (above) is why I think someone can say they know something with 99% certainty, and yet not be willing to state it as fact. If I say I believe something at 99% but it is based on something I heard from someone you don't know, or in a conversation you didn't hear, your confidence may be more like ... 50%. And I have a duty to allow you to take that at 50% instead of me presenting it as 100% fact.

OK. That was pretty long and drawn out. But I don't see any inconsistency, and certainly no irresponsibility, in anything anyone here has said about the Wagner. And as to naming the people that said it ... well those people have to make that decision for themselves. Shame on someone if they presume to make it for them.

J

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Making an accusation against someone as a card doctor is a very serious step to take. It besmirches a person's reputation, can ruin their business, and can lead to all sorts of repercussions for the accuser as well. Without 100% knowledge, it would be irresponsible to start leveling accusations.

This is, in my opinion, why many people are reluctant to come right out and name a name, and I don't blame them. We've all heard the names, and the stories, and we choose to believe what we want to believe.

However, unless someone was sitting in the room, watching someone else fix a card, all the names and stories are just hearsay. I, for one, am not willing to "come clean" and level accusations against somebody based on hearsay. We all have sellers we avoid for various reasons, we all have a personal threshhold for "doctoring" that we're willing to accept, and we all live within our own personal parameters. We all have friends that we share information and experiences with privately, and word tends to get around.

Shouldn't that be enough? Because once the witch hunt starts, mistakes can be made, and a great hobby could be ruined for good people.

-Al

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Posted By: barrysloate

Joann- if you hear something from somebody, no matter how credible they may be, I think that is considered hearsay and not fact. Our lawyers can explain it better. That is why nobody, myself included, would want to name any names. Who is going to pay my legal fees if I get sued? I think Al and I were posting the same thing simultaneously.

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Posted By: Boccabella

If what's being done is considered criminal activity--or if those responsible are participating in anything else that's criminal, then anyone with such knowledge needs to come forward--not on a public forum but to law enforcement.

I spoke with someone at the FBI recently who told me that although there is no current organized operation underway, they are most definitely still interested in hearing from anyone who has knowledge of wrongdoing within the hobby. Most of the cases they pursue and tips they receive come from the general public.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

In a trial nearly all the stuff we form judgments on would be excluded for a variety of reasons, including hearsay, lack of foundation, improper opinion testimony, and so forth. Absent eyewitness testimony or admissions, the best one could probably do is build a circumstantial case with documentary evidence comparing someone's purchases to their sales. A consistent pattern of improved grades would suggest that the person is altering cards, although it would be very hard to prove and extremely difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt if it were a criminal proceeding.

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

I, too, do not remember seeing very many spectacular condition cards in the 80s. The best cards were marked EX/MT, meaning that they had some of the characteristics of an EX card and some of the characteristics of a MINT card. That label covered a fairly wide range of condition. Then the term Gem Mint came along which to most of us meant "a blazer." Like new from the pack, with no centering issues or print dots.

Later the grades higher than EX/MT came along, namely near mint, near mint-mint, mint 9, mint 10, mint 96, mint 98, really really super-duper mint, etc. Grades that you need a loupe to really acertain. Certainly a huge emphasis on corner wear. With these grades came the price multipliers. With these came a greater temptation to trim or press and trim.

I have had cards come back (in the late 1990s) from PSA marked "does not meet minimum thickness requirement," or words to that effect. This implies that someone pressed the card and trimmed it because the card apeared to be a PSA 8 minimally. I confronted the seller of the card. He of course denied owning any such equipment and of course I can't prove that he did. He may have acquired the card from someone and else and flipped it to me. The same card came back from both SGC and CSA as simply "trimmed."

So the fact that companies measure thickness implies that they are aware of pressing and trimming as a tactic. But the fact that they caught this particular card also means that they are good at weeding out the cards altered in this way. If companies can be influenced in some way to overlook this evidence . . . ? Who can say?

I've heard the stories about the PSA Wagner, but they are third and fourth hand. Unless someone was in the room with the guy who pressed the card, and can prove it, we will never know.

My choice has been to collect stuff I like and not concern myself with the high grade entombed stuff. I'm not willing to pay the premium for differences that I can't see without a loupe and/or might have been created by tampering. I also tend to focus on issues that most people wouldn't bother trying to alter. I will, like most of us, get cards graded before selling them.

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Posted By: BcD

I bought cards from Jay Behrens

and I SOLD cards to Bruce Dorskin!

I did so there. it's out there. I feel better

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

One thing to consider:

The big "boom" in sale prices for vintage cards may have caused a lot of higher-grade vintage cards to shake out into the hobby over the last 20 years or so. I know that if I was a baby boomer with a nice childhood card collection and no interest in them, and all of a sudden somebody told me in 1991 that a '52 Mantle in mint condition could sell for the equivalent of a year's salary, I would have sold all mine.

So it could be that many high-grade cards that were hidden in childhood collections started to see the light of day when they ceased being cardboard and started being cash money.

At least that's what I tell myself when I see lots of high-grade commons. If I were a card doctor, I'd be lots more interested in fixing a Babe Ruth or Mickey Mantle than I would be in fixing a Joe Vosmik or Don Mossi. Yet there seem to be lots of high grade Don Mossi cards out there.

-Al

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

Confession is good for the soul, Brian!

Good point, Al. Also, a lot of stashed unopened material has been opened as prices of gone higher.

I once saw a display at a card of show of all of Don Mossi's cards side by side. It looked like a row of cars at a Chevy dealer with all the doors open.

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Posted By: edacra

Oh man I have a funny feeling this particular thread was inspired by a post I made.
I hope I can word this carefully since I'm posting somewhat anonymously here.

I personally never saw many minty white vintage cards in the 80's... but if that's accurate, then why weren't the longtime dealers who are truly qualified to make that observation saying it instead? I just remember EX+ cards being passed as Mint. Then I remember Becket or one of those coming out with the Mint+ designation and trying to "invest" in these extra Minty Mint cards - and I still couldn't find them (unless they were in the cases of a few certain dealers selling cards at untouchable prices). 15 years later I come back to the hobby, and they're everywhere! What'd I miss !?

That said It's nobodies duty to run around being a whistle blower, and there's probably better ways to do it then writing a trade publication article, or taking on the liability of naming them in an internet forum anyway. I hate to think any one person take the brunt of these posts.

The thing is, the backroom gossip really isn't a great solution to the problem, and it seems there are a lot of good ethical people making a living through a hobby which operates with shakey ethics, that tries to put as much burden on the collector as possible. If I get swindled the first reaction towards me is that I'm an uneducated sucker - and I don't think I have to explain the economics of how such a problematic attitude that can be. When a dealer across the aisle is swindling customers, it effects your own business, and the hobby as a whole.

People are frusterated. Hopefully something healthy and positive will come from these rants.

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

If anything, cards were more celebrated "back then," in a prior century, in a land far away. The $25,000 T206 Wagner card was discussed in the "Peanuts" comic strip. Dealers went on nationwide buying trips, advertising in newspapers in major cities and setting up in hotel suites to buy material from the public. There were more hobby publications and more shows. Big shows with tons of vintage material and far less corporate presence. Shows with live auctions. The auctions were reserved for unusual items that were hard to price, not just standard dealer inventory that wasn't selling.

You could buy cards in person from Bill Heitman and Lew Lipset and others. These guys literally wrote the book about our hobby. Collectors may know about more cards now, but they don't, as a rule, know more about cards. Obviously I'm not talking about the many knowledgeable contributors to this forum.

These guys who brought the fake Wagner to Connelly would have been laughed out of the building at a show in the 1980s. Today they get newspaper coverage, HBO coverage, an ebay live auction, etc., as though this were a true controversy. Ebay dominates the business to a great extent yet no one there knows or cares a thing about cards. Ebay has made it easier to peddle junk to uninformed consumers. Some grading companies are unable to correctly identify the cards they are grading. The stakes are higher, the transactions are easier but the overall knowledge level is lower and the opportunities for fraud are greater.

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Posted By: DJ

No one will come clean because it will effect the way they create income...in one way or another. If I knew that John Doe was clipping caramel cards and was the premier doctor, would I tell? John Doe may have enough loot to have my knee caps shattered.

Take for instance the autograph business. Before that grand daddy of all Babe Ruth baseballs brought in $36,000 some 8-10 years ago, you never saw clean, white ball signatures of "The Bambino" in such a high grade condition. Today, you see ones that are of that condition or nicer 20-25 times a year. Where were all these Babe signatures BEFORE? Something tells me someone is better at the Babe's signature than the Babe himself.

I stay clear away from top dollar singles in high condition (can't afford it, nor would I want to buy) as every PSA9 that appears pre-war, I tilt my head with suspicion the way a dog acts when he hears a sharp pitch. It's true...where were these cards before they were slabbed? Before the market exploded? I never saw cards of this quality out there in the early 1980's or 1990's.

Whereever there is money to be made, you will have shisters lurking, attempting to ruin. That's simply the truth that we all have to live with. ALl you have to do is trick one kid in the backroom and you are awarded. Bring out that black marker to the Mayo's! What's the worst thing that can happen? The item gets a rejection ticket. Simply try again in a later date!

The bigger this business gets (it seems to grow by the months), the more you have to worry about.

DJ

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Posted By: davidcycleback

There is unopened wax in the hobby, which can legitimately result in new high grade
cards reaching the market today and tomorrow. This isn't for Goudeys or Diamond
Stars, but for stuff like 1950s Topps and Bowman.

I have seen board members double dip, but the identities are secrets I take to the grave.

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Posted By: Bob

I have not alluded to the Wagner card previously as I have no first hand knowledge of its alteration (or alleged alteration), but I can speak to the issue of prewar card alteration. I have seen, first hand, caramel cards and tobacco cards which other owners have had pressed, soaked, etc to remove wrinkles and creases and have the corners "mintied" up. Some of these individuals have even confided in me what they had done, some openly boasted. I was struck by the fact, Daniel, that you need to get a hold of VCBC #7, as Barry mentioned also, to see what can be done with cards. I can tell you that all I have ever done is with a group of T206s about 10-12 years ago, soaking them to remove notebook paper from the backs, then drying them and pressing them. They were all around EX to begin with (about 25-30 cards) except for that paper on the back. They came out looking like exmt cards and are in my T206 set now, I never offered them for sale. If I could do this with so little know-how, I know card doctors with expertise and paper restorationists can do miracles.
I will also tell you that in the early '80's I went to a show in Kansas City which at that time was one of the major shows in the country. The best T206s offered, and there were a lot of them which I saw, were ex, ex+ and exmt. None I would call higher than exmt. I remember buying one of the best cards I had ever seen, a Joe Tinker bat on, from Bill Mastro, and it was exmt. There is no way it would ever get a 7, 8 or 9.
I eyeballed a lot of tobacco cards in the mid and late 80's and early and mid 90's and the blazers just weren't around, especially in caramel cards. The proliferation of high grade caramel cards is puzzling to me. There haven't been that many finds and there are too many to be purchased from estate sales or from deceased owners. Too many. I can also tell you that caramel cards rarely were found in better than vg or vgex because of the way they were acquired, by kids in candy packages, not by mail, not neatly packed in tobacco packs which were purchased by adults. In my humble opinion there are too many high grade prewar caramel cards in great shape to have been the result of anything other than alterations and visits to the card docs.

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Posted By: peter ullman

I tend to agree with you Bob...I never used to see crisp caramels...but maybe that's because people held onto them because they were always second fiddle to tobacco and weren't worth as much.. Just a thought! Can you post one of those cards you soaked and baked...I guess it won't reveal any obvious traits?

pete in mn

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Posted By: barrysloate

I once bought a collection of cards from a family in Pennsylvania around 1995 that had a couple of hundred decent T205, T206, and triplefolders, but what was most extraordinary were several dozen E92, all with Dockman backs, that I swear even by today's standards would grade 6 and 7, and who knows, maybe even an 8 or two. I remember giving a bunch of them to Don Steinbach when he and Bill were just starting their auction partnership and he said "this is exactly what high grade candy cards are supposed to look like". There were Mattys, Mcgraws, and other HOFers, maybe 30-35 cards total. That was the best caramel collection I ever saw from an original shoebox find. Of course, at the time you couldn't give them away. I couldn't find retail customers and that is why I was forced to consign them. Hard to believe!

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Posted By: Bobby

You would think that with todays tehnology that the grading companies would employ some of these advance machines. Not that it should be done for every card but there has to be a way to use something in order to detect the tampered cards. Soaking and pressing a card will alter the thinkness or wieght of the paper stock, correct. I know there are fairly simple devices to measure that and if a card is considered to be a high grade and bring in large dollars they should use it. After all don't all the grading companies now charge more to grade high dollar cards now!!! They should go the extra mile and employ some better equipment to verify the card as being a true high grade item.

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Posted By: JimB

If somebody has found a proliferation of high-grade caramels recently, please send them my way. These cards are extremely hard to find in ex/mt or better, even today. One only need look at SGC and PSA pop reports to know that they are not around in any significant numbers in high grade. So what has changed? At the National I looked at about 250 caramel cards for sale at various tables and only one or two graded ex/mt and none higher. They probably averaged about gd. There are more caramels changing hands these days - probably because of the escalating prices, but I do not see any significant number of high grade examples. Even five years ago I rarely saw many caramels at all at shows when I was vigorously trying to upgrade my E93 set. Now I see them a bit more. It does not mean that a bunch of fakes have been produced. It just means they are more actively traded these days.

The same could be true for high grade T cards. For example, at the National I pulled some of the best T206 commons out of my set and got them graded. Then when I found vg/ex examples for replacements, I sold the PSA 7 commons for a lot of cash. The prices that those commons are bringing right now brought those cards out of my set (where they have been for 15-20 years) and into the market. There was nothing particularly sinister, just market demands. I would rather have some nice caramel HOFs in vg/ex to ex than T206 commons in nm. That is just my preference. So I went with it.
JimB

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Id normally expect to see this many exclamation points if this was a forum of teenage girls talking about boys. Thank you E, Daniel, I had never previously perceived you as silly.

Regarding you inquiry regarding whether a card can survive a century unscathed and in pristine condition: of course it can. One way would include the card being used as a bookmark in a book which did not get reopened for a hundred years.

Name names, Gil.

I believe there was an Old Judge Alcott which achieved a grade of SGC98, which had been preserved in an original OJ pack. This was opened and graded about 7 years ago.


Regarding your statements referring to card alteration, E, Daniel, it is my opinion that the alteration of cards is not wrong nor right. It is an option of the card owner. However, what one does with the card following alteration can be wrong.

Name names, Gil.

A board member by the name of Baxter has contracted for the alteration of a Just So card which represents the only one of these Young cards in existence (as far as we know). That contract has been completed. I invite you to view this card on his site. He has before and after images.

Whether recent prices has drawn high condition cards out of long term collections, or if cards have been created to pass the muster of the grading companies, is open to speculation. However, testament to recollections of what transpired in the 80s is immaterial, imho. This status is due to the fact that a great many cards were taken out of the hobby prior to Beckett's release of their initial price guide in 1979.


Edited to add: Im sorry, when we all were younger, one of my daughters had a group of friends named Elaine, Irene, and Eileen. Now Im faced with: Andy Baran, Adam Baxter and Andy Becker - and I still can't get names right. This is part of why I hate sales.

But the fellow with the Just So Young is Andy Baran, not Adam Baxter - but Adam has Zeenuts and w517s (a great color set!).

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Guys,
I'm not going to argue the fact that there are many cards in holders that have been altered, but I do dispute the theory that no high grade cards existed in the 80's and 90's. I can remember 5 significant finds of T206's during that period that consisted of several thousand cards that were all EX/MT to NM or better. I still have about 45 of the cards from the "Charlotte" find of 1985, when about 350 cards were found in pristine condition. The original owner was a postal employee who's widow sold off the cards one by one at the local flea market. They still look like they were printed yesterday, and to most people on the boards delight are safetly in SGC holders.
There were also several finds in Baltimore and Richmond during this period and the great southern find in Kentucky(TBOB says so) in 1991. Even in the last 2 years there have been 2 finds of over 600 cards in VA and NC, one of which I'm still working on, but haven't been able to finish. One includes Caramels, but the others are strictly T206's and 05's. Are these find's rare? Yes, but they are out there.
I will be happy to post scans of cards from any of the finds on the board, as most have big white beefy borders, but some don't even though they are un altered from the same collection.

I'm sure that "chop shops" exist in cards just as they do in cars, but beleive the numbers of altered cards is smaller than the 50% that's been thrown around on the board. I would guess 10-15 % of all graded cards, but they may be a touch high.
Be well to all Brian

PS I have a huge Big border collection of T206's that will never be chopped anywhere until my kids sell them when I'm in the ground......

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Posted By: leon

Andy B. has the Burkett that has been restored...another board member has the Young and it's not altered, to the best of my knowledge......

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Posted By: David Seaborn

I agree with Brian. Being from the Baltimore area, I know of several of those finds he mentioned. I also agree with Jim that the higher prices of today's market unquestionably have shaken loose some of the nicer examples that have sat in collections for decades (this is true for very rare issues as well- there were more N167's offered in the last two year at public auction then in any two year peiod going back to at least 1997-when I started tracking them).

While I don't doubt that there are a percentage of high grade cards that have been altered, to give estimates of 50% or greater being altered without any sort of quantitiative evidence is just a complete shot in the dark. You might as well just throw a dart at numbers from 1-100. Everyone's entitled to their opinions, but for those who believe the percentage of alterations is quite high - keep in mind that this is just that -an opinion. Just my own $0.02.....

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Posted By: Misunderestimated

First off I don't anything first hand about the Wagner...

But I have always been amazed by the premium it commands and -- even more so -- by how many peoples' obsession/fixation with whether or not it has been tampered with.

I wouldn't say that I don't care... I do.
But not nearly enough to obsess over it as if it were the card collecting equivalent of the Kennedy assasination.

Frankly alot of what I see on ebay (usually posted late at night) bothers me alot more than the possibility (however real it might be) that the authentic Wagner may have had some unnatural contact with an exacto knife (or whatever).

Am I missing something?

-----
"No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up"- Lilly Tomlin

edited for a minor gramatical correction (and because I had time on my hands)

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Posted By: Frightened Cat

My guess is nobody wants to tell the story of the Wagner because the perpetrator(s) is/are incredibly powerful in the hobby and they do not want to piss them off for fear of reprisal.
Anonymous

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

there have been some posts that some have come out and
said that they know how to remove stains, iron cards,etc...

this should be an alert ,cause if those not so brilliant
can play doctor, imagine just what the real doctors can do.
This is why I buy the card and not the holder, I have no
real problems with the grading services, without them -
there would be more problems. None of them are perfect,
trust me, I'll soon show some horribly undergraded t206
Cubs portraits .

There have been a few who pointed out to others ON THE BOARD
AND THERE WAS CONFRONTATION, just guess you werent a member then.

Buy a partner if you are curious about a card, it isnt
the members problem if a newbie or uneducated buyer gets
the hose, most of us have paid our dues and we too cant
winnem all !

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Posted By: J Levine

First off...I held the Gretzky Wagner at least three seperate times in my own hands. One of those times it was just prior to a friend of mine holding a t206 up behind it and being able to see the border. Yes, I believe it is trimmed. Do I know who did it? NO. Am I 100% certain it was altered? NO but I from my own experience and my listening to trusted hobby specialists, I tend to lean that way. That being said, Yes, I, Joshua Levine have erased marks on cards, glued cards back together, taped cards back together, soaked cards, etc. All those cards reside in my personal collection and I do feel that if the appereance of a card can be improved with the simple act of removing a pencil mark or soaking a piece of paper off it, I see nothing wrong with it. I think people should let people know a card was altered before they sell and many reputable dealers do but this is a buyer beware country.

On to the other side of the coin...I have also damaged cards on purpose. I sat with a friend at dinner on saturday night after the national and watched him take a really nice '56 football checklist that had nearly all the boxes marked very neatly in pen and helped him fill in the last few unchecked boxes. Should I "come clean" and tell people I altered the card? I one cut an oversize t206 down to fit into my binder. As a kid, I tore a Steve Garvey RC in half on a dare and taped it back together. I later sold the card to another friend. Should I have come clean and told him I was the one who ripped it.

Do we ask where all the creases come from. How many people on ebay sell altered vintage cards? 100%. No vintage card is unaltered. They have lived and existed in the real world. They were loved or loathed. Thrown for leaners, put in spokes, shirtpockets, and wallets. They were saved lovingly in an album or thrown in an old box. Many were glued, pasted, mounted, tacked, nailed, stapled, or framed.

I think you should focus more on your love of cards and less on who does what to the cards. If I like the card at the price it is being sold for, I buy it. If it is too expensive because the card was remounted, soaked, trimmed, etc. I do not buy it. Buy from people you trust or know. Gain knowledge and you will be protected.

My two cents.

Joshua

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Yes Leon, it is a Burkett. Thank you.

Boy, I sure made that way more confusing than it had to be.
But the point remains - it is a special card, and many collectors are happy that it has been improved, while others view it as ruined. Take a look, you are not likely to see another, ever. I am glad that it is restored to the condition it was designed to be in.

PS. Don't ask Gil to name names - he can't get them straight.

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Posted By: FYS

"I wouldn't say that I don't care... I do.
But not nearly enough to obsess over it as if it were the card collecting equivalent of the Kennedy assasination."

It is somewhat hard to take with a grain of salt, assuming that it was originally holdered being known that it was trimmed. Simply put, that is fraudulent. CU is a public company and if the icon of the hobby and the most expensive card in the hobby is marketed knowingly as a fraud, I see it as not being much different then some of the corruption that went on at Tyco, Enron, Delphi etc.

It also makes it even more difficult to swallow when PSA currently trumps skill, assurance, trust, objectivity, accuracy, most knowlegable and consistent in their recent marketing sheets. Finally my personal favorite, "If you are a known seller who does not use PSA, your credibility may suffer." That is quoted from a brochure they send with their collectors kits.

Very few people outside of this board have any idea whatsoever that the Wagner even has any constroversy surrounding the card. I would bet money that if a pole was taken on Beckett with this question, the vast majority would have never even heard of this. The Beckett boards are actually the main grouping of the majority of the general collecting public. Anyone born from 1965 on has had Beckett as a big part of their initial collecting life. If the allegations are true, I view it as a bit tragic that so many pure collectors that have a great deal of respect for cards, grading and PSA are potentially being dupped.

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Posted By: William Heitman

Live auctions at the shows used to be loads of fun. I was the screener for many of these auctions all over the country. My job as a screener was to accept or reject the item for the auction and make suggestions to the owner of the item as to starting prices, etc., etc. There were usually a couple of us who did this. I recall rejecting an "autographed" copy of The Babe Ruth Story by Tom Meany that was printed in 1951. The autograph on it wasn't Tom Meany's, it was a beautiful looking Babe Ruth. Prolem????? I used to love setting up at shows. I especially liked it when a kid would start asking questions. Some dealers would ask me why I spent so much time with kids and I'd tell them that a kid didn't just leave my table with a card, he'd leave with knowledge about the card and about the player pictured; and, I figured it might give me someone to talk to when I got old. I've known dealers who had a virtual laboratory in their homes. What they did to cards was disgusting to me. I have to agree that there is a very high percentage of played with cards that are being graded and it raises the question of just how much expertise the graders possess. Whether you or I like a particular card is purely subjective. But grading services are supposed to have objective standards. The problem as I see it is that card collecting never really lent itself to this type of objectivity--there are just too many factors. I have literally seen cards that I would have graded ex/mt that have gotten 3's by PSA and cards that I would have called gd/vg (doesn't exist with PSA) that have gotten 6's and 7's. But who am I to question PSA--they've been around for sooooooo long?

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Posted By: E, Daniel

No more need be added by me, your thoughts however are positively appreciated by all.


Kindest regards
Daniel

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Posted By: barrysloate

To give my thoughts on Bill Heitman's question about how competent graders are: I think they are all pretty competent, and after grading so many cards on a day by day basis they only improve with practice. The problem is grading companies are a business, and time is money. I'm not sure the graders have the luxury of spending too much time with any one card, as orders have to be processed and shipped out according to a schedule. Unfortunately, under those time constraints they will undoubtedly miss things. I always assumed because of the various tiers that a card which generates a $50 grading fee will be looked at more carefully than a common that brings in $8. However, I have no first hand knowledge if that is true.

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Posted By: William Heitman

Please note, Barry, that I commented on the grader's expertise, not their competence. With objective criteria, graders will, and I agree with you, become more and more competent as they look at more and more cards. But the objective criteria may be all wrong for a W514 or an Old Judge. Determining the "objective" criteria requires a great deal of expertise, not just competence. I mean, look at PSA. They grade 1 to 10 with half of those grades mentioning the word mint. Poor and fair, which are two very distinct things, get lumped into 1 number. Where is good to very good? And when does mint become gem mint? Eye appeal? This is a very subjective thing and that's where expertise must overcome competence. My point on this is that I just don't think baseball cards lend themselves to this purely objective means of grading. So the rule is that once a card gets slabbed, there is supposed to be absolute faith that what the slab says is what the card is. With the level of expertise the graders possess, I think that this is a naive thought. PSA got where they are with wonderful marketing(and very little expertise), starting with the 8 Wagner which should not have been graded at all (David Hall was a coin guy, Bruce McNall was a coin guy, and the guy who graded it was a coin guy and 5 year baseball card veteran) through the piling up of just outrageous numbers because of that card. But they certainly didn't get there because of any expertise on cards. Slabbing cards is a tool for investors just as it was in coins, that has turned collectors into investors. If you can't look at a card and grade it(if the grade is of importance to you), then you shouldn't be collecting it, or I guess more appropriate in today's world, risking your financial future on it.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Clearly the graders are young and do not have hobby expertise, but professional training. Whether they have the feel for the nuances of each card set is debatable. Fair point.