Speaking of T206's - Cobby green from Marshall

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Posted By: leon

Another fine example......

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

That card is "fine" all right!

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Nice looking card, but how did it get the 8 grade, it appears that ALL the corners have a touch of wear. This is why I have a really tough time with high end graded cards.

Lee

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Posted By: cmoking

wish the scan had a black background so it would be clearer.

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Posted By: jay behrens

wow, an 8? Are you kidding me? There isn't a sharp corner on that card. That doesn't warrant a NM grade, let alone NM-Mt grade. A nice looking card, but not even a NM example.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

What a rough card...

These guys are right, corners and all look sad. I'd say the kid who first had that card used it to scrape gum off of sidewalks, and to clean his finger nails.

I'll give you $40 for it, I could use it for a filler, it is one of the few I still am after. If you will take that for it, bust it out of the plastic and I'll send you an SASE.

With kind regards,

Frank.

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Posted By: Martin Neal

I am glad someone thought that Cobb was overgraded. i have some Psa 5s that look that good. It still is a very nice card though, would love to have it in my collection.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Frank, contrary to your sarcastic remarks, and I even said so in my post, it is a nice looking card. This card is the perfect example for buy the card and not the holder, as there is no way this a legit 8. I can get sloppy on the grading of the cards I own, but when I can't see one sharp corner with just a cursory glance, I cannot jsutify calling a card NM, let alone NM/Mt. The grade on this card is a total joke. The flip may be impressive, but when you combine the card with the flip, the effect is underwhelming at best. Maybe I should submit this card and see if I can get an 8. At least it has 2 sharp corners. Then again, we all know that unless you submitted thru "prefered" sources, you aren't likely to get your cards overgraded (no aspersions meant toward Marshall since from what I know, he buys everything already slabbed).



Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Adam Smith

Great card.

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Posted By: Keith O'Leary

my favorite color too !

 

 

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Posted By: WP

Nice card but PSA would grade it a 7 today.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I go missunderstood...

And your opinion will remian based on what you thought I meant, instead of what I meant.

I think it is great card, I'm ok with the 8 it got. The guys that whine about it and find its faults would probably be upset with the lottery folks when they win Powerball, mad because the lottery people expect the winner to drive down to the office. These guys would want milage reimbursed.

I'm serious about the $40. And I'm serious about busting Cobb out, he's committed no crime that would deserve perpetual entombment in plastic.

I guess I could have remained silent, but silence is misunderstood, too.

My point for those faultfinders, is that the green Cobb is a great card. It doesn't look like it has perfect corners, but it looks "8" enough for me.

I regret you perceived that I was maligning the condition of the card. My sarcasm went misconstued. However, in another thread I'm quite serious about how neither Pete Rose, Kirby Puckett, nor Gary Carter should be in the Hall. Without equivocation.

With kind regards,

Frank.

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Posted By: JimB

I think that is a spectacular card. A couple factors could be contributing to people's perceptions that it is overgraded:
1)The white background makes seeing it really clearly tough, if not impossible for making a reliable grade assessment.
2) The image is blown up to about twice the actual size so that what may be only a slight touch on a corner may appear worse when exaggerated in the blow-up. I have seen such blow-ups make faults look much worse than they actually are when amplified like this.

Just some considerations.
JimB

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Posted By: Todd

I'm with Lee, Jay and Martin on this one. This is a beautiful card (and needless to say beats the living crap out of my SGC 30) but a PSA 8 holder invites critical inspection and this card just doesn't make it. In addition to other minor imperfections, it looks slightly miscut to me when I look at the top border. This is not intended to be a criticism of the card -- just the grading.

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Posted By: barry arnold

Great comments but i lean toward JimB on this one.
It's incredibly fine----the scans may pose a problem methinks.

barry

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Posted By: Tim James

What I look for is color.This a one of the sharper cards I've seen.I would have to question the"8",but it is a great subject.

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Posted By: jay behrens

How can you claim that the size of the scan is affecting our judgement? Do you honestly believe that that the wasn't looked at under at least a 10x loupe, if not more powerful. The flaws of that card would be magnified even more and black background would also make them more obvious. Frank, it may be an 8 to you, but in the world of the super high grade, it doesn't cut the mustard. If I submitted that card, it would get a 6 at best. If you honestly believe the Cobb is an 8, I more than willing to sell you my Shaw for the price of an 8 since it has 2 sharp corners, whereas the Cobb has none.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Jay, the problem with asking him to buy the Shaw as a 8 is that he is only willing to pay $40 for the Cobb so the Shaw woould probaly be worth only $4 to him.


I do disagree with Jim's theory for the same reason Jay gave, that thing had to be under a loupe magnified higher than the scan.

Lee

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

If Marshall's Cobb was graded an "8" what can I get for
mine at the Philly Show this weekend ? It is somewhat
O/C, but otherwise really sharp. The back is a flawless
Piedmont 150.

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Posted By: dennis

ted...my guess a 6 oc

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Jay B.

I absolutely agree with you. Most of Marshall's cards that we have seen
merit an "8"....this one does not. This card rode in on a "wave of 8's".
If you or I (or any low profile guy) submitted this card we'd be lucky to
get a "6". It is not a fair (objective) world out there when it comes to
card grading.
We need an R2D2 type robot(s) to do the grading and then we will approach
a fair system, devoid of any human factors.

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Posted By: Brett

I agree with Jay. i noticed how the corners looked dinged up, not eve sharp.... yet it grades an 8. would that be considered another part of the psa idiot file ?? lol

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Posted By: tbob

I agree with Ted and Jay, very nice card but a 5 or 6 at best. I have said so since the beginning and will continue to believe that it DOES matter who submits a card and preference IS given in grading depending on 1) the submitter 2) the amount of business for the company that submitter provides, i.e. number of submissions 3) the good old boy network.
Dennis Purdy nailed it in his article in VCBC many years ago....

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Posted By: craig

1. I'm sure Mr. Fogel didn't submit the card so any insinuation that it is overgraded because he is the owner is rubbish. More than likely this card was submitted by a major auction house that >90% of the members of this board have purchased from. If you want to question whether they ( the auction houses)get favortism I'm inclined to agree.

2. PSA 5 or 6? C'mon don't be so harsh. It may be a 7 but it's nicer than a 5

3. Is it any wonder so many people (myself included) are reluctant to share their collections on the board? You can't win. If the card was razor sharp and snow white borders people would be saying it was bleached and trimmed.

4. Save your bashing I'm not directing my comments towards anyone in particular. Just some random thoughts.

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Posted By: leon

I agree with you 100%.

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Posted By: Brian

Nicely put Craig. Thanks.

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Posted By: Keith O'Leary

I agree as well. We love seeing this kinda stuff, why discourage it?

I'm thrilled someone like Marshall would take the time to share his collection. Its rare when we have an opportunity to see such cards, lets not make it more so.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I think the Shaw card actually demonstrates why the Cobb is in an 8 holder. The Shaw is a real nice card, but I see two wrinkles in the lower left corner and a small circular indentation in the left border, as well as a small bend in the upper right corner. It is also slightly out of register and has some printing issues on the bottom on the name. The green Cobb has none of that, and it's a much larger scan.

IMO, if the Shaw would grade 5 or 6 (and I think a 6 is a realistic grade), then that Cobb is no less than a 7, on any day, with any grader, with any grading company, no matter who submits it.

I am not trying to stifle the discussion, and I appreciate everyone's views, but I'd like to point out that if people keep throwing rocks at Marshall's gems, he isn't going to share them with us anymore.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Bob M.

I recall Dennis Purdy's VCBC article, and he did "hit the nail on the head".
And, you just drove that "nail" in solidly and succinctly with your comments.
It's a game of risk with these Card Grading Co.....one tells you the card is
"evid. of trim" and another one grades it ? ? Sometimes I think it's a "crap
shoot".

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I agree with Craig on this one. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but let's not be harsh on Marshall, after all, he is showing us stuff we may never get to see otherwise. Regardless, as an owner of plenty of T206s graded 7 and 8, I can tell you that Marshall's Cobb is not a 5 or a 6; it's a 7 at the least. For what it's worth, I find that PSA tends to give more leeway to older cards when giving out their grades so a Goudey Hack Wilson in PSA 7 is sharper than a T206 Cobb PSA 7.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Craig and Leon, so basically what you guys are saying is that we should keep our mouths shut and kiss the ass of big time collectors so we don't hurt their feelings when we see a blantant misgrade? If you are going to be a top collector of PSA 8-9-10 cards, then I would think that you would want cards in the holder that actually match grade. When you play in this rarified air, if a card obviously doesn't match the grade, it's going to get called. And Craig, your "can't win" statement is a straw man. If it really were true, we would have been picking apart ever card posted. So far, this is the only becaus it is so obviously over grade.

I like seeing the cards as much as anyone else, but if Marshall or anyone else gets ofended when one of their cards gets critiqued and they want to pack up their toys and leave, then I say don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. I may sound harsh, but I have no time or patience for ass kissers, suck ups and whiners that can't handle honest criticizism.

Jay- never been mistaken for a politician

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Keith O'Leary

I'm far from being an ass kisser but I do know when to say thanks as well as when to keep my mouth shut.....I think nows prolley a good time .

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Posted By: leon

I have never, ever said keep your mouth shut, to anyone, not just you. I am probably the biggest proponent of venting and airing stuff out. No issue there. That's what this board is all about. A little tact can go a long way though.....

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Posted By: jay behrens

There is tact and then there are whiners like Craig that can't seem to handle it when some honest criticizism is put forth. Nothing that was posted by me, or anyone else was in any way demeaning to Marshall. If this card had appeared on eBay or an auction catalgue, it would be getting soundly ripped for being overgraded. And rightfully so. But because the card comes from a prominent collector, we are supposed to keep our mouth shut so as not to offend them?

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: leon

Read Craig's #2. After that I said I agree with him 100%. Personally I think the card is about a 7 to a 7.5....but the grading companies are what they are. It's only the way you come off that makes you seem like such an ass. I know you aren't . Remember, I am the "dictator"...or "dic" for short....but not short...well, never mind....later

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Posted By: Jeff Mohler

As a newbie, I love seeing Marshall's high grade cards. Now here is the $64,000.00 question.... who is Marshall?? I haven't been to a national or the Philly show, so I don't know many of the big time collectors.

Jeff

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Posted By: jay behrens

You know me, I'm not too worried about whether I come off as an ass or not. I just really hate people that find it neccessary to suck up to anyone. I can see people being upset if the criticiizisms of this card were unjust, but they aren't. Sadly, our country has developed into a bunch of overly sensative cry babies and nothing should ever be said or done that might be construed as being offensive to or hurtful to someone else. Sorry, I don't buy into it, so if some of the things that I post offend anyone, ignore them. It won't hurt my feelings in the least.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jay, with all respect, respecting someone who's not a regular here and who has a treasure trove of stuff we've never seen is not ass-kissing. I agree with your last post - but I've seen ass kissing and patronizing on this board that has made me turn Cobby's green - and you've never spoken up. Why now?

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Posted By: jay behrens

I guess I'm fired up on this one because it's so much more obvious. I've basically been told to keep my opinions to myself lest I offend someone. Sorry, won't ever happen.

You can respect someone's collection and still criticize something when you see it is obviously wrong. Something like this shouldn't scare someone away unless they are hypersensative.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

My question is where did we critize Marshall's collection? We all agree it is a nice card, we critized the grade applied not the card.

To me if I was buying any card graded higher than a 7 it had better not have a noticable flaw, especially from the front.

As always buy the card not the holder, and yes there are people out that (including lurkers & contributors) that are buying the holder without any concern about the card in the holder. We all have a right to spend our money how we please just don't be sensitive when someone critisizes your chose of how you spend it. Heck, You will probably be the one laughing at the bank when you sell your card, it just won't be me buying it.

Lee

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Hey Lee and Jay - are you guys brothers?

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Posted By: Elliot

Jay, Jay, Jay, what are we going to do with you?

The Cobb is a beautiful card, might it be a 7?, sure, but it's certainly not an egregious example of poor grading that merits the discussion that we've been having. All I know is that when somebody shows me something that they're proud of (baseball card, stamp, baby picture) even when I don't necessarily agree with their opinion, i keep my mouth shut and nod approval...i think it's only the courteous thing to do. When I discuss this forum with people that don't post one of the first things that come up is that they don't want to be attacked...perhaps we should keep that in mind.

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Posted By: andy becker

i agree with elliot, leon, keith, and craig.
how's that for puckering up???

what we (some of us) seem to be missing is that marshall is sharing.
sellers on ebay are not sharing they are selling.

what is going on here is akin to telling a proud parent that the baby picture is ugly. (good call elliot)

that is poor taste....period.

there are times to debate and there are times that, as the old saying goes....if you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything.

it's not being told to keep quiet, it being asked to have a little respect for another person's feelings.

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Posted By: tbob

As one of the posters that Craig apparently alludes to, let me say that when looking at the Cobb, I had no idea who it belonged to, who sold it, or who bought it, although I am assuming that it is in Leon's collection. But if you are trying to tell me that it doesn't matter who submits the card, that there is a level playing field, I have some swamp land in Arkansas to sell you. Also, I guarantee I have some PSA 5s that look as good as this card. As I said before, it's a very nice card, one any of us would be proud to own but an 8 with those corners? No frigging way.
I also think the Behrens brothers are right when they take offense to the fact that certain people are called out when they make a comment about certain people's cards but others are not. It exists on this board and if you don't think so, yes, more swamp land. There's just a little bit too much hypocrisy here at times. Most of the time, this is a great board and is very informative and full of great people, but every once in a while a little bit of "holier than thou" rears its ugly head.

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Posted By: Martin Neal

It seems to me that the Board is evenly divided on this issue. Personally, when I first saw the Cobb, I thought it had been posted to elicit some comments about the accuracy of the grading. It obviously is the worst looking t206 psa 8 that I have seen and as I have said before, I have some sixs and possibly some fives that would be as nice. I have not met many people on the board and certainly would not want to hurt anyone's feeling and I do appreciate board members sharing their cards with us, however, it would not hurt my feelings if someone said my cards received grades higher than actually deserved. Personally, I would rather all my Psa cards could be bumped a grade or two and I would be happy to post scans of them ( once I figure it out)

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Posted By: PC

I'd like to see some of those 5s that are supposedly as nice as that Cobb.

Just be sure to post a nice, clear, big scans, so we can tear it to shreds.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Sorry, I don't have a PSA 8 Cobb to compare it too, but this 7 I sold on Sunday, looks a lot sharper to me. However, sometimes large pictures do make cards look worse than they are in person. That's why so many sellers on EBAY don't pay for the picture pack, it's not the extra buck, but a good way to sell the holder instead of the card. We all of some 6's that look like 7's and 8's and some 7's that look like 6's, so it probably all evens out in the end. Either way, nice image and Thanks for sharing.

Be well Brian

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8769090688&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AIT&rd=1

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Posted By: jay behrens

Since there seems to be a perpnderance of cry babies around here, how about this for a solution, don't show the grade on the slab. Then we can all play guess the grade This reminds me so much of the old story The Emperor's Clothes. The emperor steps out one time without his clothes and those of us that speak up get shouted down by those that don't want to hear it.

Honestly, if someone gets offended by someone else critiquing one of their cards, then maybe card collecting isn't for them.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Brian W.

The Orval Overall (PSA 7) depicted in your link is "OVERALL" a better
looking card than this Cobb. And, Overall in my opinion deserves an "8".

And, despite all this argumentation, this Cobb does not deserve an "8".

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Posted By: leon

Why anyone is still arguing the grade on the Cobby is beyond me. Show me one instance in this thread where someone has said anything to the contrary of it being a little bit overgraded. I think you guys would continue arguing, sometimes, regardless if anyone said they agree or not...but by all means keep arguing...and when the race is over...keep running too, it's good for you. I have had conversations with Marshall about this kind of stuff before. He's like a duck with water rolling off of his back. Not a big deal. I don't see anywhere in this thread where Marshall is attacked, provoked, or looked on in an unfavorable light. To the contrary I think we all agree, en mass (sp), that sharing is good. No one has said not to voice an opinion about cards. When they get displayed, or things get said on this board, they are open to scrutiny. I remember, a long time ago, when my Four Base Hits Kelly was attacked on this board. At the next National I had it with me and Derek Grady came over and looked at it again (this is when he was already with Mastro) as he is the one that graded it originally. He looked closely at it and said he still thought it warranted the grade of vg. Does this Cobby warrant an 8? I think the boards thinking is that it doesn't. So be it....someone at PSA thought it did when they put it in the holder. And as for Tbob...here's one for you...why don't you quit whining about every damn thing yourself. According to you you get crapped on more than anyone in the hobby. If I hear one more cry I will send a box of hankies for you. Also, you NEVER have publicly said how your GAI graded card, with the chip that was glued on to it, and was NOT holdered, mysteriously came back in a graded holder from them...AFTER you told them of a time when they screwed something up on your behalf....do tell....btw, just so everyone knows...the sky isn't falling and every one of Tbob's cards are undergraded and he gets ripped off everytime he does something....