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#1
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: tbob
He announced today that he will be resigning from the SABR after 21 years unless the organization takes immediate steps to rectify the tragedy and inane voting of the 12 members of SABR who picked the new HOFers. It took 9 "yes" votes (it was a yes/no ballot) for Buck O'Neill to be admitted and 4 voters (at least) voted "no." Buck broke the color line by being the first African-American in major league baseball to wear a uniform other than as a player. Buck signed Lou Brock, Billy Williams and was instrumental in the signing and development of Ernie Banks. If you just take his record prior to 1962 and omit all he has done since then, he still should get in. He was a very good player in the Negro leagues, he won championships as a manager and has been a tremendous ambassador for baseball. Keith called on Commissioner Bud Selig to do something good for a change and either announce Buck and Minnie Minoso are hereby selected to the Hall of Fame or tell Major League Baseball that he is severing their ties with the Hall of Fame. |
#2
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: Peter Thomas
Bob thanks for making it clear what you think - me too! |
#3
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: jay behrens
It's probably best that all the inductees are dead. This whole process has a been a nightmare, especially if you are on any of the sabr-l lists. I get about 50 emails a days that are on this topic alone. Selig won't do anything as he had his spine surgically removed long ago. |
#4
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: Jim Clarke
I have to agree with keith on this one and thank you for making it public. I hope they feel the pressure in doing the right thing next go around!! JC |
#5
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: Daniel Bretta
Keith went off on his show last night...I've seen him sarcastic, I've seen him sad, I've seen him overjoyed, but I've never seen him mad like he was last night. |
#6
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: jay behrens
Wish I could have seen it. It truely is a rare side of him to see. |
#7
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: Jay Miller
I'll join the bandwagon of getting infuriated by this after Pete Browning, Bob Caruthers, Harry Stovey, George Van Haltren, Tony Mullane and Dave Orr are elected to the HOF. Till then these are just two more deserving candidates on a long line to get in. |
#8
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: dennis
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#9
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: barrysloate
And I'll add Ross Barnes to Jay's list. It seems as time goes on and each year's votes come in, more and more serious baseball scholars are becoming ever more disillusioned with how the Hall of Fame operates. I'm starting to think that picking new members is more of a popularity contest aimed at the average guy on the street; and isn't the HOF a business like any other? Don't you think they want as many people as possible coming up to Cooperstown to visit their museum? I think relatively few African Americans make the trek to the Hall and wouldn't all these new inductees be good for their bottom line? How much would attendence increase if Bob Caruthers got in? Maybe three more people would visit that year. Hate to be cynical, but the Hall of Fame is just a business like any other. |
#10
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: Tom Boblitt
on that Browning (and the others). I met Buck O'Neill in Cooperstown in 1996 when Bunning went in and he was INCREDIBLY nice and took so much time with every person who wanted his signature when too many were just ushered through the other lines. Any chance we'll have a 19th century committee again? |
#11
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: Max Weder
A few points. Please note that I am a supporter of Buck O'Neill for the Hall, and was disappointed to see that he did not get elected. However: |
#12
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Buck is 94..that is really harsh for him not to be elected. Embarrassing. The guy is such an ambassador to the game. If John Madden and Tommy LaSorda can make the HOF, Buck certainly deserves in as well. |
#13
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: Rhys
I agree 100% with Jay Miller. I'll let the tears fly when the better candidates of the 19th century are in first. It is funny that life has come full circle in a way that if ANY of the names Jay Miller mentioned had been black and born in Cuba, they would be hall of famers right now. It would be more beneficial now (Certainly not in life) to be a Cuban baseball player at the turn of the century than a Major League Star in the 19th century like Tony Mullane as far as getting into the Hall of Fame. |
#14
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: DJ
I'm upset that he wasn't inducted. Are they going to do what they did to Leo Durocher? Induct him shortly after he passes? Today Buck said that he wasn't upset about being inducted and would be more than happy to speak at the Hall Of Fame on the behalf of the seventeen. Kudos to Keith as well. |
#15
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: Dan Koteles
my opinion is shared with many of you. He has done alot for the game and exemplifies truly wonderful charachter. |
#16
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: Jeff
I have to agree with Max on this one. |
#17
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: Tom Hufford
I didn't see Keith Olberman's show and didn't hear his comments, but the transcripts at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/ do not make any mention of SABR. The message by Bob that started this thread certainly mentions SABR, though, such as the "idiots at SABR," and "the callousness of the SABR voters." |
#18
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: Kenny Cole
I agree with almost all of what you said. However, let it be known that I DO have a complaint about the failure to elect at the least, Beckwith, Donaldson, Lundy, Redding, and Grant Johnson. I'm also unhappy about the omission of Marcell, Oms, Scales and Brewer. I think the selection committee screwed up when they didn't pick Nip Winters, Bill Wright and Bill Monroe as finalists. Bus Clarkson also deserved some serious scrutiny. I didn't bitch here because it didn't seem to be the place to bitch. Rest assured, however, that I did bitch about the above to those who cared. |
#19
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: George Altemose
Thanks to Tom Hufford for a reasoned and sober commentary on the recent Hall of Fame election and the role (or non-role) of SABR in it. I wish the authors of certain hysterical diatribes would read Tom's contribution and learn from it. |
#20
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: tbob
First of all, thanks to Tom Hufford for taking the time to post and explain in more depth what went on with the voting. I think you are correct that SABR itself should not be slammed for what happened. That said, I renew my criticism of those members of SABR who DID cast votes denying Buck O'Neill his place in the Hall. I also think that there is some jealousy on some peoples' part (not yours Tom) with regard to Keith Olberman. I don't know if it is because of his tremendous collection of cards, his high salary which allows him to purchase cards others of us can only dream of, or the fact he is a member of the media, but Keith is not only an integral part of the hobby, having written many articles about cards, but is a grass roots true baseball fan. Further he has written many forwards for books written about ballplayers, including several concerning Negro League players. He has been a member of SABR for 21 years and in that time has truly contributed not only to the hobby we all love but a love of the National Pasttime also. He certainly needs no defense from this poster, but he'll get one. |
#21
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: gregor197
Tbob wrote: |
#22
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: George Altemose
Here is what tbob told us that he heard Keith Olbermann say: |
#23
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: tbob
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... |
#24
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: David Vargha
Not that he cares what I think, but Olberman has always been an ass IMO. I don't see him doing anything to change that at this point in time. |
#25
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: howard
I care, David! I thought that Olberman's righteous indignation was overblown and melodramatic. |
#26
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: Howard W. Rosenberg
This may be neither here nor there, but Olbermann, on his MSNBC show in January 2004, around the time of the release of Pete Rose's book, said betting on baseball has always being a holy grail. I then jumped on that (in a news release) by pointing out that my about-to-released book from that year contains 162 credible reports of bets on regular season baseball by players, managers or club officials through 1900. So, so much for being a holy grail. |
#27
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: rp60
There have been a lot of great 'ambassadors' to the game..But being the first black coach, signing or discovering what turned out to be great players, or being a great interview for Ken Burns should not get you into the hall..However, if you are inducting 17 people at one time associated with the Negro leagues, and not inclued Buck!! |
#28
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: leon
please email me personally.....leonl@flash.net...I would like to have a short email chat this evening....if possible..........thanks |
#29
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: gregor197
I was making no claims as to her qualifications or lack thereof for the HOF. I was merely objecting to the characterization of her as a "white woman." Until 1972 or so, which covers the entire time of her involvement with baseball, she lived as a black woman and was understood by everyone else - black and white - to be a black woman. |
#30
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: Adam Smith
"She is a fantastic example of the fact that race is a socially constructed phenomenon, and not a biological fact." |
#31
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: George Altemose
I think Howard Rosenberg is being quite magnanimous when he manufactures excuses for Keith Olbermann, on the basis that Olbermann is a TV and radio “personality,” and is therefore entitled to make stupid remarks that he would never put in writing. |
#32
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: gregor197
Adam Smith said: |
#33
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: David Vargha
I don't pretend to speak for the foremost economist in the world, but my two cents on the whole notion of "constructs" is that the idea tries to take obvious truths and show them to be simply ideas manufactured by the beliefs of a certain society. As such, there is no such thing as absolute truth. Black people have biological differences from White people, from Southeast Asians, etc. That is a fact. |
#34
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: Chad
There are no "races." Humans are not made up of separate subspecies. Yes, there are small differences between Africans and Europeans but those differences are so dwarfed by our similarities as to be almost meaningless. Meaningless except for how much WE want to invest them with meaning. To say that race is a social construct is not to argue that there are no moral standards, or that genocide can be acceptable. In fact, in this light, racism and genocide become not only immoral, but insane as well. |
#35
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: David Vargha
There are distinct biological differences that have been labeled as "races". The fact that we label or name things to identify them does not make them "constructs". If so, your name and my name are constructs and the whole value of the term "construct" is rendered moot. Most complex life shares an incredible amount of biological similarity. I believe that the DNA of a zebra and a human share something like 97% of the same makeup. But that doesn't make me a zebra. That I am human is not a social construct. It is a fact. |
#36
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: warshawlaw
Leon...time for a time out here?? |
#37
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: Chad
Which is not everything is a construct, but the notion of "human races" is. Just because you invent a word for something, doesn't make it a fact. I'm an inch taller than my brother and better looking, but that doesn't make us two separate races. |
#38
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: leon
Chad and David- if ya'll want to discuss this topic that ya'll are debating it might be better handled off line via email....no mas please....thanks |
#39
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: David Vargha
Fair enough. |
#40
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: Jay Miller
My you boys talk purdy! But I digress. If the HOF wants to induct ambassadors of the game I suggest Bob Uecker. He is still alive and would probably give an entertaining speech. As for Minnie Minoso, I saw him play when I was a kid. He was a good ballplayer but nowheres close to one of the dominant players of his time, something I thought was a criteria for HOF induction. |
#41
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: George Altemose
So, if I understand Gregor correctly, he is saying that Effa Manley was able to change back and forth from being a white woman to being a black woman, and then back again to being a white woman. Gregor, do you think Effa Manley had any influence on Michael Jackson? |
#42
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: John J. Grillo
I agree is the Hall of the Very Good and not the Fame. Too many are in the HOF and the dilemma Baseball faces is trying to make "two wrongs equaling a right." Yes, there are a few Negro Leaguers deserving when compared to some Whites who were let into the HOF when they shouldn't have been elected into the first place. Just two quick examples, Bill Mazeroski and Ryne Sandberg, none of which are going to be remembered in Baseball folklore. |
#43
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
John, great idea... everyone is let in and every year the Hall gets to vote people out! It'll keep them pretty busy and it lets them vote for more people that way! |
#44
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: gregor197
Leon said: |
#45
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: leon
My wishes were only for those 2 to take the discussion off line that had developed in this thread.....the original topic of this thread is still open and anyone may talk about it. It's when it strayed way away from that, that I asked for a cease.... |
#46
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Keith Olberman shows some guts and is right on the money
Posted By: howard
For anyone who subscribes to ESPN.com Insider Rob Neyer wrote an excellent column today on the election of Effa Manley and the non-election of Buck o'Neil. |
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