how to classify W575 vs E121 w/ad backs

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Posted By: leon

I still struggle with exactly how to classify the cards from the W575 series that have ad's on the backs. As I am an avid back collector I never seem to come to a definitive decision in my mind. One that's been known forever can be a good example (there are many more). Take the Witmor Candy cards. Should I make it E121/E-unc or W575/E-unc. There's the Haffners bread cards....should they be W575/D-unc or D-unc/W575 and which main categories should those go in "W" or "D"....? I could put them all as E121/xx or W575/xx, and I am leaning towards the latter to make it more focused. Also, we can throw in the tidbit about the much thinner strips (in vertical strips of 10) being the real W cards.....I know we have had this discussion before but it's been a while and I am updating my website so it has come to the forefront again...thanks for any input..and happy holidays (oh yeah...here's another quandry)

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Posted By: Andy Cook

Leon,

You're wrestling with one of the great issues of our day. On a related note, how are blank backed "E135s" referenced? That may be a good guide. I think the answer is which set - E121 or W575 - do we consider as the root set from which the others are derived? I consider E121 as the root, which spawned W575 and thence all the off shoots - Witmors (3 types), Leader Theater, Holsum (2 types), Haffners, Gasslers, Gertenrich, Herpolsheimer. Therefore I vote E121.

Andy

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Posted By: leon

Please don't tell me, after I got the impossible vertical Witmor, that there's a 3rd type...and that you are just thinking of something else?

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Posted By: Anonymous

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Posted By: leon

This is of great social importance folks so listen up . After I posted about this yesterday I spoke with my good friend Lyman for (what my wife said was 2 hours) about 30 minutes, mostly discussing this topic. As long as folks have a rationale for what they do then at least there is a "reason". One thing I have never taken the attitude of, and dislike, is the reasoning "well, it's always been that way". So we started talking about W575 vs E121 and how they are categorized. I said that recently I have gone back to the ACC and found out some "new" old info on different sets. When looking up E121 and W575 the ACC says:

E121- Baseball Stars (120) rectangular b&w 2 x 3 1/2 1st issue marked (80) many team changes etc.

W575- Baseball Photos about 2 x 3 1/4, various sets, blank back, Anon.
Similar to E121, E122, E220, W502 one set has autograph on shoulder


SO there it is in black and white. My theory is this. American Caramel did not technically mfg the cards as that was not their business so they outsourced it. Whomever made the cards already had the presses going and it was not much extra to produce more sets as the machines were running, so to speak. American Caramel got their xxx amount of sets and then the others were sold to other companies. I don't think American Caramel had anything to with this (unless they sold extra sets, which is a small possibility) and neither did Mr. Burdick or else he would have said "various sets" when describing E121's. He didn't. He did say the E121's were similar to W575's, which we already know. So the fact that he said "various sets" when describing the W575's, to me, means that this is where these other sets should go and NOT in the E121 category. I am going to start listing all of my "E121 like" cards as "W575/x-unc. I feel that will close my personal dilemma and unless someone can convince me otherwise, which with the overwhelming reaction here, I doubt will happen, they will be classified as such, by me. Along a similar note I am going to classify the E135 type cards, with different backs, as E135/D350 etc...as there are no other W cards like these with ACC numbers on the front listed........best regards...moderator dude

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Posted By: Anonymous

The fact this makes sense is further bolstered by the fact that W575 has many cards that did not appear in E121. All these sets spawn from W575.

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Posted By: identify7

Sets do not have to spawn from each other. They can originate in a pool of photos available for manufacturers or distributors to choose the players to be included with their product. The outsourcing of the card design and manufacture could follow or include this selection process.

When the product is chiefly the card, the ACC designation is typically the w- series. Why not catagorize cards in accordance with the product with which they were issued (hey, I didn't think of this first)?

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Posted By: leon

My reasoning stems from the ACC which all card "numbers" are originally derived from, as you know. IF it was good enough Mr.Burdick it's good enough for me....and he said that W575 had various sets so to me that is where he classified them. You said

"When the product is chiefly the card, the ACC designation is typically the w- series"

So that is my primary category with a sub header after it.. He did classify a few of them like D328, D350 etc...So I "might" put those in their respective categories but for all others I will probably put them under W's....though I have been waffling back and forth...hence my original post. Thanks for confusing matters some more, Gil . Eventually folks can see my answer to this on my personal collection site.....

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Posted By: identify7

Leon, it was not my intent to cloud the issue. In my thinking it is clear, although I am sure that not everyone agrees.

My sole point is that Burdick already has established catagories in which product oriented cards, possibly including: Witmors (3 types), Leader Theater, Holsum (2 types), Haffners, Gasslers, Gertenrich, Herpolsheimer, and others could be placed; if applicable.

The applicability refers to whether the cards were included as an insert (which would qualify the card as a D, E, etc.), a stand alone product (ie. a w-), a hand out freebie much like the trade cards from the 19th century, or something else.

In my opinion, attempting to read Burdick's "various sets" as intended to be a catch all for the issues which have been cited in this thread, is debatable. I think that catagorizing each non-freebie trade card by its supplier may be worthy of additional consideration.

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Posted By: Larry

This is a very interesting topic because there seems to be constantly new finds and some realizations regarding this issue that makes ACC seem slightly obsolete...

E121-issued by American Caramel in series of 80 & 120 came standard 2 x 3.25"....Probably was outsourced by same printing company as other sets but paper stock was very white and slightly heavier than the "W" counterparts..The various backs such as Herpolsheimer, Holsum etc...all should be categorized as "D" for food products and "H" for clothing products if you use ACC formula. This printer used a totally different paper stock than any "W" issue

W501-issued in strips but had jagged cut fromm examples I have or have seen offered...had date actually in upper left corner, generally 4-22, must have been different company that issued cards but licensed pictures from same factory and used thinner and grayer paper stock...are very slightly larger than E121's and W575-1, probably all hand cut however it is intersting to note that the group recently offered by Mastronet which we acquired(98 cards) ALL are jagged cut meaning they could have been actually issued this way and NOT in strips


W575-1-more similar to E121 but are grayer and have similar paper stock to W501 but are very slightly smaller than same W501 issue and have no date...They also have different players in the sets , a few with different position abbreviations than E121...There also seems to be evidence than these two "W"" issues were issued at similar dates as a few of the players are in both sets while a couple are not in either 80 or 120 series E121...jagged cut or straight cut, probably all hand cut

1921 Koester's Bread Subset- VERY similar paper stock to E121, Herpolsheimer etc..different players in this set that were NOT issued in E121 such as Tom Rogers and abbreviations different such as Bob Meusel outf. instead of of..this issue was definately issued later in 1921 to commemorate the NY WS..This issue is very white in color compared to any "W" set, paper stock is actually a touch thinner than E121 and heavier than W501 or W575-1..straight cut examples all I have seen

W575-2- Differs totally from above sets, this is the set that has autograph across shoulder and has different pictures and nicer stock...

Hope This Helps...Larry

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Posted By: leon

Gil and Larry,
Any contradiction in this thread is solely for sake of my sanity and in the spirit of the board and friendly debate. I think ya'll are taking it that way too but I want to make sure I show my appreciation for the kind responses and thoughts. I am going to look a little closer at my cards over the next few days and examine the stock they are on and see if that helps, as Larry pointed out. I have always thought the W cards should be on thinner stock but that is not always the case with some of the uncat. cards I have, I don't think. BTW, if I am not mistaking Burdick used the "H" for many different trade cards. He also said that even his own catalogue had been redone and revised. I will give further thought to this subject and respond more later... thanks again.....off to the scanner..

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Posted By: Larry

Leon-Hi....
I just posted to clarify certain issues and had only one intention, to assist you on clearing up some facts regarding this issue. This post which is a really good one, has a solid purpose... and I had no intention of anything except to pass some knowledge regarding the subtle differences.

The best reason to participate in this forum is to share information with all that wish to learn and we all benefit.

One day, the ACC which is the backbone of the hobby catalogue will need to be slightly amended, this particular issue is one of them.

As I have shared before, we were not around when the sets were issued so we can only speculate based on physical evidence but there can be little doubt that E121's, W575-1, W501 and 1921 Koester's were similar but NOT the same issuer & not the same sets... but I do believe that W501 and W575-1 are very similar except for players, date of issue and actual cropping ....I have several of each in SGC holders and can send scans upon request.

1921 Koester's have similar attributes to E121's(except blank back and some different players etc.) and related backs but the W issues are QUITE different for many reasons already stated.