AJ could play for John McGraw

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Posted By: tbob

He's gritty, hard-nosed, gives it 100% all the time, is a real jerk to opposing players and even a lot of his teammates, and he plays baseball like its meant to be played. A-Rod or Manny or almost every other player would have a) been styling after the strikeout, b) thrown their bat in disgust and sulk away or c) been too proud to run hard to first on a strikeout.
AJ is a true vintage gamer. Johnny Evers would have been proud

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Posted By: David Vargha

But did the ump blow the call? That's the real issue.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

By the AM on Thursday all the umps will be singing from the same hymnal... did you see the interview of the umps after the game? It was interesting to say the least.

I would have to figure that AJ, being the WSox catcher, interpreted the situation and took advantage of the Angel catcher tossing the ball out to the mound (followed by the ensuing confusion). From the replays it look like the catcher cleanly caught the ball, but that's obviously not what the ump thought and it's all about what the ump sees (or thinks he saw).

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Posted By: Anthony

Somewhere Fred Merkel is having flashbacks.

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Posted By: pete

the ump second-guessed himself after calling AJ out twice, not just once...when he saw AJ run to first...this is precisely why baseball needs a manager "challenge" and go to the replay, i think that only plays at the plate should be allowed since there wouldnt be that many to begin with and any other wierd play like AJ getting into the umps head...
pete-

my best pitch was the one that made it to the plate!

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Posted By: David McDonald

Rest in Peace, Mickey Owen

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Posted By: john/z28jd

This time it should be the ump who gets remembered for the error not the player.Josh Paul did the right thing because he caught the ball in the first place.I like how the umpire got on tv and straight lied and then they proved him wrong on baseball tonight.

I wasnt rooting for any team going into this series in either league but i really hope the Angels advance now so this play is just an afterthought.Pure stupidity on the umpires part and he doesnt have the guts to admit his mistake.

The other part about the umpire saying he didnt make the verbal call is even more of an excuse on his part because Erstad the 1st baseman saw the out call and started leaving the field.If there was a potential play at first because of the ball in the dirt then he wouldve had to cover first and rely on the umpires call to know to be there for the throw.Once that 2nd signal is made play is over not matter what happened because thats how the umpire called it all night.

AJ tricked him into believing the ball was in the dirt and he fell for it without consulting anyone,plain and simple.It would be nice if baseball stepped in and said he was obviously wrong twice and lied about it and he cant umpire again and fill his spot with someone suitable but that wont happen.

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Posted By: Marc S.

But Josh Paul should have tagged the runner or thrown to first. Always better to be safe than sorry - especially when it's the bottom of the ninth inning in the postseason. Shame on the ump, shame on the catcher. Both blew it.

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Posted By: Bryan Long

One of the good things left in baseball is that there is no instant replay. I hate that about football. People are going to makes mistakes - it is human nature. Sometimes the mistake may cost you the game, sometimes it may win you the game. Technology has taken the fun out of some aspects of sports.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Yep, that blasted, new-fangled technology has taken much of the fun of losing a game on an obvious, blown call. I sure do miss the good old days.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Marc:

I don't fault Josh Paul for not attempting to tag the runner or throw to first. In his mind he caught the ball cleanly and the umpire never gave any indication that the situation was otherwise. Unless there was some question in his own mind that he caught the ball cleanly or the ump thought he didn't, why raise the spectre of doubt by acting like he didn't?

Tbob:

You talked about the players "styling," but how about the umpires? Sometimes I think they are so concerned about how they look making the call, they ignore getting the call right in the first place.

Kevin

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Posted By: Bryan

just ask Doug Mienkevitch (however you spell his name) and his wife.

Second, looks like baseball just got their own version of hockey's dive and football and basketball's overacting to draw a foul or penalty.

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Posted By: leon

I didn't see the play but have heard all about it. There is absolutely no reason for the catcher not to be safe and either tag the runner or throw to first. It's kind of like running out an easy pop after you hit it. These guys get millions of dollars to be the absolute best. That means double checking and doing the basics...which making sure a runner is out is....Just my 2 cents and I know there are many opposing views.....regards

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Posted By: Marc S.

What we do not know is if anything was AUDIBLY indicated to the batter/runner after the play. I have no reason to believe the umpire - and really have no basis for speculation on that point.

But, for what it's worth - Josh Paul should have been vigilant, and he wasn't. On any low third strike, the catcher should either turn to the umpire to confirm he caught it, or just simply tag the runner. My wife is a baseball neophyte - and I have had to explain this "dropping of the third strike" rule to her dozens of times. If you watch baseball during the regular season - you will see many times per game instances where catchers just tag the runner or throw to first to be absolutely sure. Even when they clearly did not need to.

I fault both umpire and catcher in this case.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

My thinking is that he was sure about the catch otherwise he wouldve tagged him not the other way around.Catchers are trained to do certain things instictively but the whole problem was the umpire signaled him out then got on tv and lied about it saying if you go back and watch youll see thats how i did it all game.So baseball tonight went back and proved him wrong.Did he think we were just gonna take his word for it after he blew a call? Did he really forget about instant replays?

Its like a cop asking someone if they have something illegal in the car,they say "nope,but make sure you check" and then when the Policeman find something he tells them what they found might not really be there

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Posted By: tbob

As a former catcher I can tell you that you ALWAYS put the tag on the batter if you even think the ball was in the dirt on a strike 3 swing at a pitch unless first base is occupied with less than 2 outs. That said, the play came only minutes after Tim "The Blathering Idiot" McCarver had just gone on and on about how intelligent backup catcher Josh Paul was, etc.
That said, Mike Scosia showed enormous class after the game in not blaming the outcome of the game on the call. I'm not sure any other manager in the game has that much class, maybe Joe Torre, maybe...

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Posted By: Patrick McHugh

Bryan Long you are so right. i feel there should be no replays, technology etc. Baseball has been played with none of this junk for years. That is why baseball has umpires they are human they make mistakes. If you are a player and hit .333 you are a superstar, thats not getting a hit 2 3rds of the time making mistake. My point is no one is perfect including umpires. I do not want baseball to change. The next thing you know there will be a robot umpire at every base and pitchers with bionic arms!

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Posted By: john/z28jd

<<<<<As a former catcher I can tell you that you ALWAYS put the tag on the batter if you even think the ball was in the dirt on a strike 3 swing at a pitch unless first base is occupied with less than 2 outs. >>>

This further proves my point and coming from somonee who caught when major league distances were only 45 from the mound to home plate(sorry tbob,had to say that).Catchers always put the tag on the batter when they think the ball was in the dirt! Ive seen numerous times where the catcher tagged someone he didnt have to.I was rooting for the WSOX up until this call but the umpire blew it by making the call and not realizing when the whole Angels team continued to leave the field even after AJ was running to 1st, that maybe the ball was caught.Paul knew he caught it and the pitcher saw him catch it and no one has better views of what happened and if neither of them thought about a tag which ALWAYS happens when theres a chance the ball was in the dirt then its an obvious call hence the hand signal for a strike.

I blame the umpire 100% for blowing the original call,using the wrong hand signal,and lying afterwards about both things which in itself is unacceptable

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

It was the ump's fault. Why did Josh Paul flip the ball to the mound and walk off? Two reasons: first, he knew he caught the ball clean. That is not enough of a reason to walk off the playing field because he clearly is not the guy that calls balls, strikes and outs. However, twice, the ump signalled out and Paul additionally added that if a third strike is dropped the ump would call out "dropped" or something like that. Obviously this was not done or else Paul would not have run off the field. Pitiful ending to a great game. I felt bad that the umps needed to circle their wagons and lie instead of just telling the truth but I guess that is part of baseball (and society at large) too.

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Posted By: Glen V

No technology in baseball? Its full of it! Pre-season games are full of scouts with radar guns. They use video and computer analysis to get every bit of performance out of a player, or figure out how to hit a pitcher. Even the uniforms are new fabrics that weren't around in the 1800s. Should we get rid of the lights - go back to all day games? Even the time between innings is based on TV commercials - cutting back on those would speed up the game more than stopping once or twice for a replay would ever hurt it. For the most part, I'm against replay, but for the very few times there's a question about a fair or foul HR or a real close play at the plate (once every 5-10 games?), I'd like to see the correct call.

Money doesn't go as far as it used to. This year 330 million only bought the Yanks & Sox 2 playoff wins...

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Posted By: leon

Sounds like baseball needs a "moderator dude" . Also, I lean towards not having replays....it sort of takes the human element out of it too much. I could probably be swayed with enough argument though.....

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Posted By: J Levine

Josh Paul is nearly completely at fault...in fact the umpire did the exactly correct thing (with one tiny exception). When a player strikes out and the ball touches the ground (the only part the ump got wrong after frame by frame replays) he is to signal the batter swung, which he did, and signal an out, which he did. He does not verbally call an out because he thought the ball touched the ground. The play goes down as strikeout/ E2. This was nothing more than a player using his brains and hoping for the best. Paul should have waited to toss the ball. In little leauge, I used to catch, and one of the first things I was taught was not to roll the ball out until the player had walked out of the baseline and the player was called out verbally (since my back was to the ump, you have to wait for the verbal call--even when a third strike is swinging).

I love guys like AJ, reminds me of Mickey Hatcher. Mickey was the slowest man in baseball and was rounding third one day when he saw he was going to be out at home by 15 steps. As he comes around third, he shouts "CUT, CUT"...the shortstop thinking he should cut the ball, does so, and mickey is safe...smart often overcomes physical talent.

Both these teams play smart. Good luck to them both.

Joshua

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Posted By: pete

1. kevin, speaking of "style" in an umpire, do you remember Ron Luciano? he had a variety of ways to call you out, my favorite was when getting out at first base, he would sometimes shoot you with both hands in a "machine gun" fashion...he was great, he had a book when he was alive, if you want to laugh, read it.
2. does anyone remember the astros and dodgers back in '82ish when the dodger player (garvey i think) struck out and didnt know the catcher missed it, walked 92% of the way to the dug-out (first base side) and then headfirst slide into firstbase, got out, and the astros went to the playoffs?
3. that umpire is lucky he isnt a soccer referee, he'd be dead

my best pitch was the one that made it to the plate!

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Posted By: Chris Mc

Hats off to AJ, heads up veteran play and Joe Crede with a huge at bat. Having said that and not able to provide an unbias take, the ball clearly bounced. Look at the replay and you can see the ball bounce up into the mit. I of course, am happy with the result but had I been an Angels fan I would have been pissed, but would have lived with the call after I saw the replay. Hey for what it's worth, Escobar with two strikes on Crede did not get the job done. Series tied at a game a piece, no replay, next game Friday.
Go White Sox!

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Pete:

Who could forget Ron Luciano? Still, he can't claim the best titled book by a major league umpire. That honor goes to Durwood Merrill - You're Out and You're Ugly, Too. Back then the histrionic umpire was the exception, though, not the rule.

I don't begrudge the umps their flamboyance - they're "on stage," too. It just seems they get a little too caught up sometimes in the theatrics or the authority trip.

Chris:

I'm not sure that the ball apparently bouncing is the ultimate determinant. If the webbing of the catcher's glove was under the ball, I think it could both bounce and be considered a clean catch.

Kevin

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Posted By: David Vargha

Pete -- My favorite umpire "exhibition" was Leslie Nielsen in the Naked Gun movie. Now that was a classic!

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I truly believe that Eddings wasn't sure one way or the other as to whether that ball hit the ground. He signaled strike three--then he signaled out, because I think he was sure Josh Paul was going to apply a tag, making the matter acadamic. When there was no tag, Eddings didn't know what the hell to do, and let his indecisiveness get the better of him.

If the rule requires the ump to make a verbal call of out, then I don't think the Angels have any argument, because the word was not uttered. Josh Paul cannot be said to have relied on the arm signal, because he had his back to the ump and never saw it. However, I doubt the rule requires a verbal call, or the issue would not be debated as it is. Eddings could simply point to the rule and the other times he verbalized the call, and claim his silence here supports his decision. As no one is focusing on the verbalization (or lack of same), I assume it is not determinative.

I believe it is incumbent upon the catcher to make sure the batter has been declared out, and Josh Paul did not do that with AJ. IMHO, it is not enough to say the ump usually says "no catch" on balls that are trapped so as to alert the catcher that a tag is required. Had he turned and seen the arm signal out, that would have been a different story, but he didn't.

All that being said, I still blame Eddings too, beause I truly don't believe him when he says he thought the ball hit the ground. Again, I think he was clueless, was surprised when AJ ran, thought his uncertainty was showing, and looked for explanations after the fact. Eddings should have considered that a catcher would have no incentive to roll the ball back to the mound unless he caught it, and resolved his uncertainty in favor of an out call. I guarantee that if that same play occurred with the bases loaded and two out, whereby the winning run would have scored then and there, Eddings would have ruled it a catch. Instead, he screwed up, hoped it wouldn't bite him in the a$$, and was wrong.

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Posted By: sagard

1. The umpire is a disgrace in my opinion. Not because of what he did on the field, but to not admit missing the call or accepting any blame is weak. At absolute best he was indecisive and unclear about his call, at worst he changed his call after AJ took off.

2. Paul is even more deserving of blame than the fool of an ump. Typically catchers or outfielders for that matter will hold the ball up and "show" it to the umpire to demonstrate they caught it. At that point the umpires will ALWAYS make a decisive call, after which Paul can either roll it out to the mound or toss it down to first.

3. It really doesn't matter. The Angels are going to win in five or six games anyway.

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Posted By: Anonymous

While there is plenty of blame to go around (most lies with the umps), I think it’s wrong to lionize A.J. for a "heads up" play if he knew Paul caught the ball on the fly. There is nothing admirable about an athlete trying to bait an umpire into making what the athlete knows is a bad call. I realize such deceptive tactics are widely revered in the modern day "win at all costs" sports ethos—wide receivers routinely scoop up passes on a short hop and signal first down, basketball players regularly knock the ball out of bounds and point to their opponent, etc. But why should deliberate attempts to break the rules of the game be characterized as “heads up”, “smart”, “gritty” or otherwise good, instead of just plain ol' cheating?

I don’t think it is a sufficient response to say that it's the player's sole job to win and the job of others to enforce the rules. If that were true, it would be acceptable for players to use steroids so long as they could avoid getting caught. That would help them win, after all.

I suspect A.J. and McGraw would be a good match. But it bears noting that the player McGraw is most closely associated with is one of baseball’s most honorable gentlemen, Christy Mathewson. Frank DeFord recounts in his recent book that one time Matty slid home in a cloud of dust, blinding the umpire and, in despair, the umpire turned to Matty and said, "I couldn't see, Christy, how do you call it?" Matty replied without hesitation, "I was out."

I hope my kids follow Matty’s example.

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Posted By: Josh A.

It's just good to see the White Sox on the receiving end of a questionable call for a change.
AJ has been a solid teammate all year. To the person who said he was a "plague," I will be happy to send your clippings from the Chicago newspapers. He is one of the major reasons for Garland's productive year, and the grown of McCarthy and the rest of the pitching staff. A good heads up play by AJ, hopefully this is the spark that the Sox need to carry them into the Series. Heaven knows they didn't play that well in games 1 and 2.
It's good to see a fellow White Sox fan on these boards!

"I'm thinking about getting a plasma T.V., in case I need a transfusion."- Steven Wright