Cuban Polar Cards

[Archive]

Posted By: michael Campbell

What I plan on doing, is getting expert opinions from
the following:

Minnesota Historical Society. They are going to do
tests on: The Font. The adhesive on the back of the
card. Chemical tests can be done. The makeup of the
pulp in the paper. They can even do tests to see if
the paper was manufactured in Cuba. I am also going to
talk to experts on all these things from forensic
experts in Kansas City, and Boston. I am sparing no
expense. Not because of the "value" of the card, but
because I want to prove it one way or the other. The card
looks real to me. But I have been fooled before. I
will admit that. One of the curators at the Historical
Society also has a Cuban paper, and print expert on
their staff. So....we shall see. I will not stop until
I can get a reasonable yes or no. I know there are no
certainties, but we can get some probabilities. Cost
is no object here.

I have made several calls already. I am on the Board
of Direstors for the local Historical Society, and my
good friend is on the Board of the Minnesota
Historical Society. So...we will get an answer on way
or another.

Everyone have a wonderful weekend. Remember, this all
a hobby and it supposed to be fun......it's not life
and death.

Mike Campbell
White Bear Lake, Minnesota

[Archive]

Posted By: Chad

I hope you find the cards are real and that we find there are indeed Cool Papa Bell and Buck Leonard cards out there. That would be exceptionally cool. Looking forward to your findings.

--Chad

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Keep us posted!

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

By the way Mike...

do you have any of these?

If you come back and say that the experts declare them real...

we need to knwo that you have no vested interest int he outcome.

Thanks!

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

OK, I know you must have at least ONE...

since the experts have to have something to examine.



I just think that we need to know whether you have one that you purchased on EBAY...

or whether you were the guy selling them on EBAY and you have a whole box full of them.

Thanks!

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike Campbell

Yes I own one. No I am not the seller on E Bay. I am a life long collector of Pre War cards. I am a retired commercial banker. If anyone wants proof of my legitimacy, I can provide that as well. So I will have the time to pursue this. I love doing things like this. If the Historical Society can manage to authenticate Abe Lincoln's documents, I believe they can help me with this. I will have the font looked at next week. Then the paper pulp, adhesive on the back, where it was attached to a book of some sort. etc. etc.

This may take a few months. My intent here is to take it to the limit. I will let everyone know when I get results. If they are fake so be it. I have no motive for leaning either way in this matter. I am just curious.

If found to be authentic, I will obtain documention from all forensic inspectors. I am assuming they will give me their blessing in writing.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Great! Thanks!

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike Campbell

My first meeting with a forensics expert is tomorrow morning at 11:00 at the Minnesota Historical Society, his expertise is in printing process and font types. he is the first in three or four meetings I will be setting up. As I said previously, I stand to gain nothing. If they are frauds, so be it. makes no difference to me. It's not like we're talking about the Honus Wagner T card. But I just enjoy the searching out. I will get documentation in writing, and forward my end results to Bob lemke.

Stay tuned.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike Campbell

I met for an hour and a half this morning, with two scientists from the Minnesota Historical Society concerning the authenticity of this newly discovered issue. I had never been in a laboratory before. Very interesting. Anyway..they put this card through many tests. Looked at it through many different machines. Looked at many scientific journals concerning print processes, photographic processes, and now want to look at the paper fibers. I was just a Commercial Banker in my career, so much of the scientific lingo was way over my head. Because I want this study to be somewhat conclusive, no conclusion was reached yet. I may have to take this one out of state, to personally meet with a paper pulp expert.( If this sounds crazy, it might be) but I love this kind of thing. I have the time and the resources to take this one all the way. We even called an expert over the phone during all this. Her expertise is in printing processes. She was surprised that anyone would go through all this for a baseball card.

I will continue to keep those who are curious, apprised of the findings. I want to try and get a definitive answer. Once again, I am only interested and curious. I have no vested interest in this outcome. I own a card, but only have $200 into it. Nothing major. So if anyone thinks my judgement is clouded by the outcome, they are wrong. I am a collector of vintage cards like most of us here, and just want to know the truth. There have been some individuals who have voiced an opinion, without even holding or seeing one of these. I don't think that is the kind of verdict we want to rely on in this hobby.

All final results will be put on paper, and sent to Bob Lemke. He then can make the final decision. This may take a few months.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Is the back of the card Printed or Stamped??

I wonder if they can tell the age of the ink?

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike campbell

The stamping on the back was a subject of much discussion. They talked about it for 20 minutes or so. They looked at it under several high test machines. They could tell alot from the edges, the accumulated wear to date, so on and so on. Again, I am no scientist. Just a former bank Vice President. But I will defer that discussion until I can more info, and try and get it in writing from the scientists involved. I don't want to taint anything in either direction. They were hesitant to tell me much. As they understand my wanting an accurate answer. I asked them many questions, but they wanted to wait. I won't even tell you what they told me. We will wait. I don't want this to turn into, what so many times happens in these situations where pseudo experts voice opinions without anything to back it up. Along with baseball memorabilia, I also am a big Victorian antique collector. Much of my home is late 19th century. The reason I mention this is because I have been through this before with antiques. It takes time sometimes. But I will try and get a definitive answer. I am as curious as anyone.

[Archive]

Posted By: one-in-ten

The process is interesting, tho naturally I'll be awating the results eagerly as the Negro League stuff is my passion.

--Chad

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike campbell

Me too Chad. I love this.

[Archive]

Posted By: Michael Campbell

When I took on this authentication project, I had no idea that it would lead me to so many different places, and people. I just heard back from, what is probably the nations leading expert, on dating paper. he is out of Ct. (I am in Minn) He has redirected me back to an individual in Wisc. He tells me that this person should be able to do a microscopic test,(Without damaging the card) whereby they take a part of the card,(something the naked eye can not detect) and get an almost unqualified determination. And again, it's the thrill of the hunt, that makes this fun. Not the value of the card. I own about 50,000 cards, so what is one more, or one less. I know many have already written these off as fakes. maybe so. They could be correct. We will try and find out for certain. I am not letting out any opinions I have received from conservators until I can get some sort of definitive answer either way. Determinations will be gotten in writing if at all possible.

[Archive]

Posted By: Chad

Again, I await the results eagerly and am glad you've taken this on. However, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the circumsantial reasons Ryan thinks these cards are fake. He has extensive experience with Latin cards and has a number of contacts with collectors in Cuba and has traveled there to inspect collections in person. That he hasn't, and that none of his contacts have ever seen these cards before, and that the cards just don't jibe contextually with the history and style of Cuban cards isn't evidence to be dismissed. Also, even if they determine the paper is from the right place and right time, I don't think that necessarily makes them authentic. For me, the printing process, especially on the stamp on the back is going to be the definitive proof.

All that said, I sincerely hope the cards are genuine--I could use a refresher from my growing cynicism--and am glad you've taken this project on as they aren't many of us with the resources of time and money to do it. And, if you can definitively show they're fake, hopefully that will discourage counterfeiters in the future.

All the best and good luck,

--Chad

[Archive]

Posted By: David

i think this would be a great article for old cardboard

[Archive]

Posted By: Michael Campbell

The printing on the back has been the subject of much discussion. The experts at the historical Society have expressed an opinion, but again, I will wait and do a summation when all the info that I can get, is in.

I am not writing off Ryan's expertise. If I implied that, I'm sorry. Not my intention. His knowledge and contribution to the hobby speaks for itself. Everyone I have spoken to who has dealt with him, has a high opinion.

I will keep everyone abreast of the situation.

[Archive]

Posted By: Chad

I didn't think you were dismissing anyone. It's just that I think that the scientific evidence your compiling in conjunction with the expertise of knowledgeable collectors is going to solve this mystery. And I do agree with an earlier post that this would make a great article for Old Cardboard. I hope you feel inspired to take up the suggestion.

--Chad

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike campbell

I would be up for writing an article for a publication. Especially an area such as this, that entails so many areas that interest me. Baseball. Memorabilia. Forensics. If asked, I might do so. But only after a conclusion can be reached either way.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike Campbell

Today I received in writing an unbelievably detailed analysis on the age of the paper, ink, print type etc. etc. Much of it over my head. I want to get a total of three opinions, the next two are out of state, so this may be a while. Plus, I have suffered a death in the family this week, so I have had more important things on my mind. Anyway, I did not indicate in any way, when I thought they were manufactured. I did not want to sway the outcome. The date that was arrived at was very interesting. But after three opinions are arrived at, I will fire them off to Bob Lemke. This has certainly been interesting, if nothing else.

I have also had ongoing discussions with the original seller. Though this will not in any way sway the outcome. He is not doing anything except awaiting the outcome.