E107 - Type I vs. Type II

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

In looking at the article in the new Old Cardboard magazine...

I see where they have the Type I Lajoie card right next to the Type II Lajoie card.

In examining them closely...

it looks like the Type II cards have thinner borders...

because the PHOTOS on the Type II cards are BIGGER than they are on the Type I's.

The font is the same... but look how much wider the Type II photo goes out past the lettering on the bottom of the card.

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The importance of this is that the Type II cards are NOT cut "thinner" than the Type I cards... they just LOOK like they are.

The dimensions of the cardboard is the same... so bigger photo means smaller borders.

This, along with the printing on the back of Type II cards, is more solid evidence in support of the Type II cards having NOT been "cut from a box."

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Posted By: scott brockelman

hal,

the photos make it look like the same size, but they are not. the type 2 photo has been enlarged in the magazine to fit for presententaion beside the type 1. in reality the central image of both, frameline to frameline, top to bottom and side to side are the same, if you look close you will see there is no difference in cropping of the photo either.

i still have 2 other type 2 to compare with their type 2 counterparts and the same is true central image is exactly the same size, one card is smaller overall and guess what the other has normal large E107 borders(the only type 2 i have seen this large).

scott

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

OK, this explains why I have never noticed it before. I don't have a Type I Lajoie to use as a comparison to my Type II, so the magazine was my first chance to see them side by side. The enlargement of one photo explains the situation.

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Posted By: DJ

We all know how tough e107's are, but how tough are blank backs?

DJ

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

The blanked back E107's and the regular E107's are about 50/50 in my experience, but others may differ slightly.

It is the one with the purple "Breisch Williams" stamp on the back that are very rare.

But then again...

as we have discussed on this board before...

how hard would it be to create such a stamp and "add" that feature to your cards?? I really don't know.

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Posted By: DJ

Thanks Hal.

After I wrote the Post, I saw a blank backed (irony) in the 19thCenturyonly auction and bidding was kind of low ($330 for a hammered common) and the description used the word scarcer. I've seen roughly 15-20 one of 150 backed versions over the last 12-18 months or so and this was the first blank back.

Thanks again.

DJ

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Posted By: Brian McQueen

In my experience, I'd tend to agree with Hal in that they are just about equal, perhaps giving the slight edge to the blank backs being a bit more common. But no, it doesn't swing significantly one way or another.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

I may be wrong, but I believe that all known Type 2 backs are BLANK. I don't think that any are known with the "one one one hundred fifty" printing on the back. However, I think there is confusion because Scott B has a Type 2 with a Blank Back that has the Breisch Williams Overprint on the back.

Scott, is this correct?

If this is the case, it is still possible that the Type 2's were cut out of something. No one knows exactly how and when the overprints were applied.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Brian's article mentions a Type II with the "150 players" printing on the back...

but as you know, it certainly isn't my Lajoie...

so hopefully he will clarify.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

as andy stated i do have a delehanty with the overprint back, not the 150 series back. i now anyone that i have spoken with who collects this issue has ever seen a Type 2 with a printed back. the overprint that i have is also the only Type 2 known to exist with the overprint. the origin of such we may never know.

the overprints are much scarcer than the 150 or blank backs, possibly 10-1.

scott

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Only until I get my stamp and purple ink kit back from that custom-made mail order company...



Actually, my purple stamp that I am going to put on the back of all of my E107's will say:

"The Lewis Caramel Co."



I figure if I am going to counterfeit something... I mind as well make up my own brand of candy in my honor.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Scott:

On a more serious note...

Since you obviously believe (as do I) that the purple "BW" stamp was put on the back of your card in 1903 by the company for advertising purposes...

then doesn't that PROVE that the Type II cards were indeed CUT and DISTRIBUTED by the "BW" company???

If they were distributed on a "box top" or "poster" of some sort (as has been erroneously reported in the past)... then there is NO WAY to explain the stamp perfectly placed on the back of your individually cut card.

The ONLY remote possibiity is that the Type II card were distributed by Breisch Williams as STRIP CARDS with SEVERAL of them still attached...

and with the purple "BW" stamp INTENTIONALLY placed on back of ALL of the cards on the strip...

with the INTENTION of having the cards CUT APART and collected individually by the consumer.

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SO...

at BEST, we know that the Type II E107's were individually cut apart (obviously HAND CUT) by the Breisch-Williams company in 1903 BEFORE they were ever distributed...

and at WORST, we know that the Type II E107's were individually hand cut apart in 1903 by the person who received them from the Breisch-Williams company, just as the company INTENDED for them to be.

In other words...

the fact that most all Type II E107's are hand-cut does NOT make them "TRIMMED"...

it just makes them "FACTORY HAND CUTS."

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Granted, there was nothing to stop someone in 2001 from buying a Type II E107 and "trimming" it to make it look neater in appearance...

but I doubt anyone who owned something so rare and treasured would do any such thing.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

hal,

without proof positive, it is impossible to determine the origin of the type 2's, the original theory was that they were part of an ad piece or possibly the box the caramel/candy came in, both of which make sense due to the heavier gray stock, definitely not slick finished card stock. my overprint does make it look like either of those theories could be incorrect. as to a strip card of sorts, i doubt it, nor do i think an erroneous piece of stock was used by mistake.

i do feel that all were contemporarily stamped by the breisch williams company, the blank backs and 150 backs may have been distributed by another company or companies altogether. i also think the issue was produced over 3 years or so and probably not 2 as the catalogue states.

i understand your wanting to establish a defacto origin, but at this time there is none. your stating that they are hand cut is correct, i would not deem them trimmed. but i also can't say for sure they are a card issue and not cut from an ad piece, or the box, (which is still my leaning), even with the back stamp. if i was 100% sure they were a card variation issue, you would be sad, i would still own the type 2 lajoie and would never have sold it.

if and when we ever find an ad(even newsprint, which may dsiplay a package), or the ad piece, we will have to speculate their origin,



scott

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Understood, but can you give us a different explanation for how a Type II ended up with an official "BW" stamp on the back??

If the "card" was still a part of the small candy box, then it would be IMPOSSIBLE to get a stamp INSIDE the box and make it fit to work.

It also makes NO SENSE at all for Breisch-Williams to put their stamp INSIDE a candy box where it would NEVER BE SEEN...

UNLESS...

they had EVERY intention and probably even INSTRUCTIONS to consumers to cut the card off of the box and collect them.

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So again, the PURPLE STAMP on the back of a Type II can ONLY mean that Breisch-Williams WANTED people to collect the cards... REGARDLESS of whether they came individually, on a strip, or on a box.

There is no other way that a person could have bought a box of candy with a Type II card on the box cover, cut off the card... and THEN had it stamped later.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

hal,

i wish i could explain it, i do know the full size type 2 i have has no perf. marks or frame lines to cut on.

until we find out for sure, we can all dream of possible scenarios, at this time all we have are some small grey and white photos with a picture of an old time ballplayer on it, that we all cherish.


scott

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Posted By: Brian McQueen

I had always considered the overprint back as something that BW used to distinqush their cards that they placed in caramel packaging from other sponsers who may have been using the e107s as well. Regardless of which, according to this theory, the overprint back would have been something added at the factory and before the cards were even packaged. However, wouldn't one think that because BW was the main sponser, you would see more of these overprint backs than you do?

Now take a look at this Yeunglings Gehrig....



Before you all yell at me for steering this thread O/T....have we considered that we may be wrong in our approach in determining the origins of this overprint? As you can see, the Gehrig has a stamp on it due to a promotion that the company ran at one point where the card was stamped when redeemed for ice cream products.

What if this theory holds true for Breisch-Williams? Is it possible that they could have held a promotion of their own where kids turned in the cards for more candy, and cards that were turned in were stamped with the "Overprint" back upon redemption?

In the case of this Gehrig, it is in itself a very scarce card as very few Yeunglings survived with this stamp. They could have been gathered up at some warehouse and then disposed of. Perhaps this is why we see so few e107s with the overprint back? In addition, perhaps because of promotions such as these, this is why we see so few e107s compared to other caramel sets in general. Maybe BW ran this promotion for several months or even years. That would have sucked up a lot of the cards in circulation since kids would have been constantly handing them back in.

In addition to the reasons above. Maybe the reason why type 2 cards have appeared with this back but not the "150 Subjects" back is that kids also cut these off of candy boxes or wherever they came from and had these stamped as well at one point?

I was just sitting at work this morning when all this just sort of came to me. It would explain a few BIG questions involving e107s as a whole (ie...why are there so few of them compared to other caramel sets...why is the overprint back so rare....why do type 2's exist with the overprint but seemingly not the "150 Subjects" back"? ...etc)

I'm sure there is some sort of logic I am missing though. Any thoughts??

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I was wondering why the company would stamp the backs of the redeemed cards if all they were going to do was keep them and destroy them....

but I guess it could have been to prevent EMPLOYEES from pilfering a pile of the already redeemed cards and giving them to someone to redeem AGAIN for ANOTHER prize?

Now that we know from Brian's article the history of thse Breisch-Williams Company and where it was founded...

is there anyone who can go back and research the newspapers from that city during the 1902-1905 time period and LOOK for some sort of AD for this candy an/or any give-aways??

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I will say this:

I have always wondered why the purple "Breisch-Williams" stamps are so crappy and hard to read...

but it would make perfect sense if they were NOT stamping them to ADVERTISE...

but only for THEIR OWN record keeping.

SURELY they would have made the stamp a lot more informative and easier to read and even a better color and provided more info on the backs of the cards if they were REALLY "advertising."

Instead... they just used WHATEVER stamp they had laying around in their office...

which of course was just a stamp with their company name on it that the probably used to stamp their name on invoices and checks and receipts and other general uses around the office.

I think Brian is definitely on to something here!

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Of course, this would mean that all cards with the purple stamps on the back are "ALTERED" since they were NOT originally issued in this condition...

so I expect that this opinion will not sit well with anyone who owns cards with purple stamps on them.

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Posted By: identify7

The company could have distributed their cards inside of a box, or seperate from a box. The box surface could have contained pictures identical to the cards. In order to distinguish box cut outs from the actual cards, BW could have stamped the (inside of the) boxes prior to folding them.

Or am I missing something?

Certainly there are, as Scott points out, many possibilities.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

It does also give some explanation for why there are SO MANY (comparatively speaking) E107 cards WITHOUT the purple stamp on them...

and SO FEW still in circulation WITHOUT the stamp.

What company would only put their advertisement on 5% of the cards they distribute??? Never made any sense to me.

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They went to the trouble of PAYING some company a BUNCH of money to PRINT the cards in the first place...

but couldn't even afford a decent STAMP for the back of the cards that was legible and well-centered and informative???

Nah.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Gil: You are missing that there are definite Type I cards that ALSO have the purple stamp on the back... and a lot more that don't.

Thus, they couldn't have just stamped the boxes and not the cards.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

SERIOUSLY... LOOK AT THIS:



On a scale of 1 to 100...

the MARKETING or ADVERTISING efficiency of that illegible purple stamp is what??

I will be generous and say it's a "2"

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Granted, this was 100 years ago...

but there is still NO WAY that THIS could have been considered "effective advertising" even back then.

Look at it again.

They didn't even make an EFFORT to place the stamp on the BORDER of the card where it would be easier to see and not interfere with the writing on the back of the card.

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It sure looks like all they were concerned about was getting the back of the card stamped...

AS IF THEY WERE IN A HURRY...

which they probably were if they were stamping 200 at a time when someone redeemed them for a bike or a glove!!!



I think Brian is right.

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Posted By: Brian McQueen

Well, I know the stamp wouldn't have been used to distinguish Type 1 from Type 2 because these stamps are predominantly on Type 1 cards. There's maybe 1-2 Type 2 cards in existance that would have this overprint, Scott's being one.

Hal, your point makes sense about the rough look of the overprint stamp and feeds into my theory even more. I would need Scott or someone with mulitple e107 Overprint backs to maybe post a couple so that we could see how they look in appearance. If there's a uniform look to them, that wouldn't really support this theory. If they are all rough and haphazard looking, possibly faded, and tend to be in different locations and angles on the back of the card then I think we may definately be on to something here. If the cards were indeed redeemed, the stamp wouldn't have a "neat" look to it. Whoever did it would have probably been in a hurry and just stamped the card quickly in a random location on the back.

Since we're learning a little more about BW as a company as well. Perhaps it would be possible to contact the Oxford Chamber of Commerce to get a hold of some company data? I'm sure there has to be some form of "accounting records" that have survived all this time. Maybe there would be some more information on how their candies/marshmellows were packaged and what kind of promotions they ran during 1903-05?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I have seen a BUNCH of the purple stamped cards...

and the stamp always looks about the same.

Haphazard and hard to read...and short on ink.

Like they were in a hurry.

I have seen the stamps on BOTH the blank and the printed backs...

and I have seen the stamps on Type I and Type II cards.

And it is ALWAYS the same crappy stamp with no real advertising information.

Just a generic stamp with the company name on it... just like the one the book keeper used to stamp paychecks.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

I have another Theory about the overprints, which is similar to Brian's. I think that his theory is probably more likely, but I figured I'd throw this one out there anyway.

Since we don't know how the cards were actually distributed, I have always thought that it was possible that candy store owners received loose cards with their candy orders, along with instructions to give the cards away to kids who bought the candy. My theory was that Breisch Williams may have also sent rubber stamps out in these packages, and asked the store owners to stamp the cards before handing them out. This might explain why there are so few cards stamped - the store owners didn't bother, and how a Type II could have a stamp - if store owners had a stamp, they could use it on the back of an advertising or box cut-out.

There are some major similarities between my theory and Brian's, the largest one being that the cards were not originally issued with the stamps, and they were stamped at a later time. I really like his theory. I can see entrepeneurial (sp) kids at the turn of the century trying to pass the Type II's as regular issued cards to get whatever prize was part of the promotion.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Andy:

You read my mind!

I was picturing the kids LAUGHING when they cut out the Type II cards from the box and FOOLED the company by redeeming them as cards!

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Posted By: Brian McQueen

I had the opportunity to speak with Andy about this earlier today and I wanted to share a really neat point that he made about the Type 2s and why there are so few of them. As we've discussed today, it would make sense Type 2s were originally a part of the boxes that the candy/caramels came in. If you think about it, remember those boxes/sets of Topps that you'd buy back in the 80s? Those had similar "cards" printed on them as well. On each box, there were 4-5 "cards" of some of the players within the set and if you cut those out, they'd obviously be on a thicker stock than the normal cards. Very similar in nature to the relationship between Type 1 and Type 2 e107s. I think that there were a set number of players pictured on the boxes the candy came in and that is why so few Type 2 specimens have been found. I need to find one of those boxes Topps produced so I can cut one up and have a nice "Type 2" 1988 Topps Jose Canseco!

Man, we're coming up with some breakthru stuff today. I'm going to need to write a follow-up article now.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I have some of those "box bottom" cards that I cut out from the Topps boxes in 1986 and 1987.

And even though they were on boxes... they were INTENDED to be CUT OFF and collected... so I would consider them "cards."

If I remember correctly, there were 4 on each box bottom... and there were 5 different boxes... making a total of 20 cards in the "set".

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So now we surmise that the Type II's were not necessarily on the "candy wrapper" of the piece of caramel that the kid would buy at the store...

but that the Type II's were on the outside of the WHOLESALE BOX of candy that was delivered to the store for retail sale.

The storekeepers would probably just put the WHOLE BOX out on their counter and let people reach in and grab however many pieces of candy they wanted!

The reason for putting the Type II's on the BOX was to SHOW the kids what they would be getting INSIDE their individually wrapped piece of candy!!

This makes sense. Heck, it is no different than when I was buying wax packs in 1986. The big cardboard Topps box was sitting on the shelf... and there were pictures on the outside of the box to get you to buy the cards.

And... to entice you to buy a WHOLE BOX of cards ... they printed the "1986 Type II Topps" cards on the BOTTOM of the boxes.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

i am going to go out on a limb here, without looking at my set, i think ALL of the overprints are on 150 series backs, NEVER a blank back. i have 41 overprints so i shall check tomorrow.

also i disagree with the redemption theory, all of the overprints i have seen have the same characterstics, slightly angled, with the last few letters doubled. TOO much alike to suggest they were done at different times. ALSO many of the E107's, overprints included, that reside in 4 of the near complete sets originally came from 1 collection, they have 2 small spots of either pink paper or paper pulls at the top, there are also blank backs and 150 series from the same collection that have the same characteristics , they were obviously from an early mounted collection.

whatever the origin, each and every E107 is very rare(yes i will use that term) and every owner should cherish 1 or 100 of them. if you have 100 let me know!

scott

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Posted By: scott brockelman

after rereading the thread i would like to address a couple of issues, first on the gehrig card, that appears to be nothing more than a rubber stamp "forward" stamp commonly used by the post office, probably vintage but not a redemption stamp by any means.

also, AGAIN without close examination they overprints are all TOO smiliar! COULD THEY BE MACHINE OVERPRINTS, the rotary press method was common of the time, which may explain why the long stamp was not perfectly aligned and blurred?

also many of the overprints have purple ink residue on the front, so they were definetly stacked atop each other, whether single cards or sheets.

the truth is out there

scott

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

And like you said, Scott...

just LOVE what you have and be happy with it!!!

EVERY E107 is incredibly rare and valuable...

regardless of the paper stock or the back.

BUT...

some day I will buy that damned Time Machine on Ebay and go back to 1903 to solve this riddle!!

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Posted By: scott brockelman

upon looking at all of my overprints they are all on 150 series backs, again i have not seen a blank back, save the type 2 delehanty with an overprint. while the angle is varied, they all appear consistent, also every one has the overprint the same direction, in other words not one card was overpinted upside down, probably not the work of an enterprising youngster. also one reason for the light diagonal slant to the stamp. if applied perfectly it barely fits on the card, i imagine someone found be angling it diagonally they had more surface area to stamp.

scott

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Posted By: Paul

I sure like the theory that the overprint stamp was BW's way of "cancelling" the cards upon redemption. But the fact that every single one of Scott's overprints is on a 150-series back really undermines this theory. Why would BW stamp only the 150-series backs?

I suppose it's possible that all of the blank backs (except Type IIs) came out after the end of the BW promotion that we are imagining occurred. Or maybe the blank backs were issued by another sponsor in a different part of the country, and for this reason were never turned back into BW to collect a prize. But that still leaves the "careful stamper" problem that Scott pointed out. Why would the guy with the purple redemption stamp so consistently stamp the cards in the same direction? I guess it's like asking how many licks till you get to the center of a Tootsie Pop - the world may never know.