Fleer just went out of business

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Posted By: Jimi

Sad news today in the card world as Fleer has apparantly gone under. I know most of us associate them as competing with Donruss and Topps in the 80s and 90s, but they actually started in 1923. Here's the article: http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/12117930.htm

Take care all,



Jimi

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Posted By: jay behrens

The sadest statement was the comment made by someone who asked about the remaining memorabilia in Fleer's inventory. He commented that there was a lot of really cool stuff there, unfortunately, all the signatures have been removed

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: Mike H

If it hadn't been for Fleer, Donruss, Upper Deck etc. the card hobby as a whole, would be in better shape. When Topps lost it's monopoly, the prices jumped and double dipped refractor inverted ducksquat high gloss inserts where everywhere. It became impossible to collect everything. It was great when you could ask for a 1971 Ernie Banks and everyone knew what you were talking about. In this instance, competition killed the industry. I hope all but one company goes under.

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Posted By: scgaynor

Actually, I think just the opposite. 1981 was the year that I first went card crazy and a big part of that was the introduction of Fleer and Donruss to the marketplace. Fleer and Donruss introduced the error card craze, which is one of the first huge epochs in baseball trading card history.

Scott

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Posted By: Jimi

with you, Scott. I really feel that Upper Deck was more responsible. That showed what an "elite" card could be with holograms, a quality picture, and a futuristic look. Fleer and Donruss cards from the early days were so awfully produced with bad photography, errors, etc. I give them both props for hangin' in there as long as they did.

Speaking of which, I don't see Donruss being around too much longer either. The "Big 3" today appear to be Topps, Bowman (they get all the best RCs every year), and of course Upper Deck.

I'll stick to the pre-war though!

Jimi

Jimi

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Posted By: Richard

Upper Deck and Topps. I believe that the Bowman brand is owned by Topps.

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Posted By: Richard

There still is a big 3:

Topps/Bowman
Upper Deck
Playoff/Donruss/Score

Fleer/Skybox went out of business.

There was a lot of consolidation the past few years.

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Posted By: Richard

I don't know if I agree with you.

If I ask for a 1909 Ty Cobb, who knows what in the heck I am going to get...

too many darn manufacturers back then!

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Posted By: David H

I stopped collecting in 1981 and only resumed in 2000. I say good riddance to Fleer. All of these crazy stupid sets, its a joke, profits driving it all.

I remember the last day I collected cards was when I, with usual disappointment, opened yet another (and my last) pack of Donruss cards only to find the same player (yes the same exact card) 5 times in the pack one after another. What a joke it was. Those crappy cards took all the joy out of collecting. Not to mention the deteriorating quality of Topps cards circa 1981 and beyond.

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Posted By: Julie

I can't remember how it starts, but (and based on ACTUAL experience), this is how it ends:

Da da da da da da da da,
Donruss should take some safeguards:
I found 13 Pete Roses
In three different poses
In one pack of Donruss cards!

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Posted By: DJ

Yeah, Upper Deck is too blame but it could have just as easily been Score. When Score came out, they were 'the thing'. When Upper Deck...'What? $1.25 for a pack?". Then in 1991, Topps had to compete with UD and bring out 'Stadium Club' and brought back 'the series' and then Fleer came out with Flair and the rest is history. I believe Fleer came out with packs that only had inserts in Football.

I agree, I want to see Topps, one set...792 cards and to hell with the rest. NO INSERTS! No fuzzy cubed jerseys of Ty Cobb or Morgan Ensberg...no cropped up signatures of Arlie Latham, the Pope or Shea Hillenbrand....no chunk of Honus Wagner's bat or Robert Perez!

Basic, ugly $18 for 36 pack box! Let's get rid of inserts...I mean gambling and bring the kids back into this business! I discovered baseball cards paying $1.09 for a rack pack and if I didn't have that, maybe I wouldn't be all that well adjusted!

I don't feel bad for Fleer. I look at it another way. One down...several more to go!

DJ

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Posted By: Chris Counts

I, for one, will miss Fleer. I realize that any discussion of Fleer will venture dangerously into the post WWII era, but I'll take my chances anyway.

In my estimation, Topps peaked in 1956-57, and it's been downhill ever since (I do however, love this year's Topps Heritage set, which mimics the '56 set!). Remember, Topps is the company that actually had players pose without their hats off so they wouldn't have to take a new picture for the next decade or so in case a player was traded. Because of Topps' laziness, there are literally hundreds of Topps cards from the 60s of head shots of players with sweaty buzz cuts.

Between the demise of Bowman in '55 and the opening of the card market flood gates in the early 80s, Fleer was the only company that tried to break into the card market on a grand scale, which I understand was no small challenge due to the aggressive legal tactics Topps employed to fend off competition. I've also always had a soft spot for the 1959 Ted Williams set, which I believe has a classic design and many wonderfully colorful actions poses of Teddy Ballgame. I'm also partial to my 1960 Fleer Lefty O'Doul. To represent stars from the 1980s in my collection, I've exclusively chosen Fleer cards, which I believe are far superior to Topps and Donruss cards of the same era.

Competition is good for cards. I understand that both the Old Judge era (late 1880s) and the T206 era (circa 1910) were the direct result of competition in the tobacco industry. In the early 30s, competition led to Goudey, National Chicle, George Miller, DeLong, Tattoo Orbit and a couple others issuing sets at roughly the same time (1933-34). And the 1950s were, in my opinion, the Golden Age of card collecting, no doubt in part because of the fierce competition among card makers. In just the three years that passed before Topps bought out Bowman before the '56 season, card collectors could salivate over Red Mans, Red Hearts, Mothers' Cookies, Johnston's Cookies, Wilson Weiners, Dan-Dees, Stahl-Meyers, Rodeo Meats, Hunter Weiners, Glendale Meats and numerous other sets of varying scarceness, obscurity and desirablity.

Regarding competition and the influx and so many bad, gimmicky and shiny designs in the modern card market, I believe the high tech revolution — from MTV and Fox Sports to Photoshop and of course, computers — is primarily responsible the evolution (or, in my opinion, demise) of the modern card.

As far as I'm concerned, Fleer can now take its rightful, although slightly less exalted, place among the now gone but never forgotten makers of baseball cards ...

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Posted By: DJ

From SI.com:

The proceeds will be used to pay a list of creditors that includes dozens of current and former professional athletes. Utah Jazz forward Andrei Kirilenko, for example, is owed $5,000; Hall of Fame catcher Johnny Bench is expecting $14,350.

The company struggled so much that by late 2003, it was seeking bids from competitors.

The best one came from Upper Deck: $25 million. In a hearing in state court last week, a Fleer official said the company rejected that offer because business was starting to improve.

Upper Deck agreed to start the bidding in Thursday's auction. Its offer now is $2 million.


DJ

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Posted By: cmoking

great article posted by DJ!

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Posted By: DJ

Thanks. Here is the complete article:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/baseball/mlb/07/13/bc.bbo.fleerauction.ap/index.html

What would you rather have? A T206 Wagner in NM condition or a Baseball Card Company? $2 million to start...if Doyle Brunson can make a $700 Million Offer to purchase the World Poker Tour, I'm sure we (the Board Members) can scrape together that kind of cash to own a Sportscard company?

I'll be the jersey cutter...I can cut into squares like a pro!

DJ

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Posted By: Glenn

Like a pro or like PRO?

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Posted By: DJ

I have no affiliation with PRO, my slip.

I'm simply applying for the position of 'square cutter' (if we all purchase Fleer) as I have exceptional skills in cutting historic fabric into squares--one inch by one inch. Not so good at glueing the items into cardboard but I'm sure someone on the Board will have exceptional skills in that.

Meant to say: I cut fabric in an exceptional manner!

DJ

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Posted By: cmoking

I didn't read the article, and I don't know their financial status, but I'm assuming there is a ton of debt owed by Fleer. The purchaser assumes the debt. So the $2 million probably costs a lot more as the buyer has to inject money into it.

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Posted By: DJ

According to court filings, Fleer has debts of nearly $40 million.

DJ

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I don't think anyone should cheer its passing for two reasons:

1. Every disgruntled, pissed off redemption customer is one less potential vintage collector. Lots of people start with this year's set then get into older cards as they become interested in the hobby. Screw them early on, however, and they move to something else. We need fresh faces or our treasures become overpriced cardboard;

2. Fleer was one of the iconic nameplates of the hobby with a long history and many significant issues, plus a huge role in the formation of the modern conveniences we like about the hobby (big shows, good prices, lots of interest).

I happen to think that the competition between the card companies spurred on by Fleer's antitrust suit was great. I mean, look at the cards offered from 1974-80 and 1981-87. The graphics, photos and paper quality went way up as the three rivals fought for market share. You may not like modern cards but that is no reason to cheer on this company's failure. Besides, if you don't collect the "new crap", who cares whethere there is 1 set or 500 sets?

As far as bidding on the bones go, there is one misconception out there that I want to clear up: in bankruptcy or in an assignment for benefit of creditors, the debt is left behind when the assets are sold. The proceeds on the assets are used to pay off the creditors. If Upper Deck's $2 million is the only credible bid, they will get the assets free and clear of debt for that sum.

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Posted By: DJJ

Upper Deck has purchased Fleer for $6.1 million.

DJ

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Posted By: cmoking

warshaw, thanks for the clearing up my ignorance.