Now this I really do not appreciate

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I received a card today from an ebayer and included wrapped around the card so I'd have to see it was religious tract proselytizing for Christianity. As a non-Christian, I find the course the theocrats are taking in this country to be alarming and it really pisses me off to receive this sort of material in with my cards. I'm strongly considering leaving a negative feedback for the seller.

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Posted By: jamie

i had to laugh when you read this as i just received a payment yesterday from an ebayer who included a religious pamphlet. in 6 years on the bay, ive probably gotten half a dozen of those things. i treat it like junk mail- unwelcome but a fact of life and, most importantly, easy to dispose of and more easily forgotten. its not worth the headache.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

selling on ebay now? I got a Mickey Mantle last trip brochure the other day. I looked at it, and threw it away. My faith is still intact and I wasn't brainwashed. Nice picture of the Mick. Guess he could make a death bed conversion though, given the events of his life, huh?.......

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Posted By: davidcycleback

No matter what the persuasion, it's generally not good business practice to include political or religous propoganda with the merchandise. Few people are looking for spiritual and geopolitical instruction from their beanie baby dealer.

If you are mum about your beleifs and treat all your customers like princes, the Repulican customers will just assume you are a Republican, the Democrat customers will figure you must be a Democrat and the Druids will assume your are a Druid.

I have received those Mickey Mantle booklets and, for me at least, it was not a big deal one way or the other. It neither offended or converted me. It was just something with The Mick on the cover.

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Posted By: Chris Counts

If I was a wiser and more forgiving person, I would let the incident pass. But given the fact that I find Christian proselytizing revolting, I would never purchase from the seller again and I would let him know it. It is clear that nothing is sacred in this world, not even our beloved baseball cards. I guess in a hobby that features its fair share of cheats (type in "1933 Goudey Babe Ruth" on eBay if you don't believe there are cheats in our hobby), it's only reasonable to assume a small percentage of card dealers will be religious wackos as well. Not that I consider religious people to be wacko, but anyone wrapping my cards in religious pamphlets qualifies as a wacko in my book.

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Posted By: Bryan

It might be rude and it is probobly uncalled for but if you agreed with the seller's views it wouldn't be a problem. Throw it away and forget about it. The only "holier than holy" person here is the one who puts down another person's views.

And is the name calling really necessary. Calling someone a "wacko" because they are passionate about their religion is uncalled for. A much higher percentage of people would call someone who spends thousands of dollars on old cardboard with pictures of men on it "wacko." Personally I do not have a problem with either.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

And I do not mean to insult the beliefs of anyone, including that seller. However, I have a big problem with a seller sending me stuff telling me that "God's wrath remains on" me unless I follow their particular religion. I do not feel hyper-sensitive, either. As Roger Kahn recounted about a discussion he had with Clem Labine, who didn't see how Jackie Robinson being called a "black bastard" was any worse than if he'd been called a "French-Canadian bastard", that's because they aren't lynching French Canadian bastards in Mississippi. It is all too short a philosophical jump from God's wrath to man's wrath. Christian religious zealots have a less than stellar record in their relations with non-Christian minorities (see, e.g., the Crusades, Inquisition and Holocaust, for three examples). My ancestors left Russia and Poland because of Orthodox Church-inspired pogroms against their towns. Have whatever beliefs you want but have the good taste and good sense to shut the hell up around others who may not share them.

Let's keep politics and religion (and crying) out of baseball cards. The only time I want to hear the Lord's name invoked in baseball is when the groundskeeper trips over the tarp.

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Posted By: Adam J. Moraine

With Bryan. Get over it, Warshawlaw. If YOU received unsolicited mail, for crying out loud, do what I do, simply throw it away!

Best Regards,

Adam J. Moraine (Christian, Republican & DARN PROUD OF BEING BOTH)

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Posted By: Darren J Duet

To hell with that, damn it!

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Posted By: Adam J. Moraine

CALM DOWN, AND PERSCRIBE YOURSELF A DOSE OF YOUR OWN MEDICINE DR. D.(JUST KIDDING!)

BEST REGARDS,

ADAM J. MORAINE

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Posted By: Robert

I am a Christian and I dont preach to others but I do share my faith and life experiences with others if they ask me first. Maybe it wasnt the most professional thing to do but at the same time I think instead of being irritated about such why not look at it in a different light. You may not agree with what the seller did and that is fine as we are all welcome to our own thoughts and beliefs but why not look at it as you ran across a seller who may be overly passionate about their faith but the seller is an honest person who more than likely you can depend on to send you items that you won and paid for in good faith. This scenario could have just as easily been one where you got ripped off by a dishonest person. Why not be thankful that you had another postive experience with a seller sending the item in question instead of considering giving him a negative and or not bidding again on any of their auctions. You werent forced to read whatever the material was and you had free will to do with it as you saw fit just like the junk mail we all get in the mail every day. Maybe it would have been more appropriate for you to email him privately and say thank you for the card and that you received it but you would kindly appreciate it if he wouldnt send such material with cards that you may win in the future if you bid on his or her auctions again instead of raking him over the coals publicly on the forum.

basicgreatguy@hotmail.com

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Posted By: DJ

I knew this topic would be split down the middle and the easy way to handle this is to toss the literature and think nothing more about the transaction. But the truth of the matter is that some people do feel violated by literature of this sort and I don't think it's the place of the sender to include it. I have received this as well and I was a little angered to be honest with you. Not as angry as the guy on the busy street with the megaphone and the picket sign screaming at pedestrians and moving cars, but I don't think it's appropiate and I look at it like 'junk mail'.

Today I got a catalog about ordering swimming pool supplies.

I DON'T EVEN OWN A FREAKING SWIMMING POOL! WHAT THE HELL DO I NEED CHLORINE TABLETS IN TUBS OF 200 FOR?

I am a religeous person but I don't 'pay it forward'.

DJ

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Posted By: leon

I wouldn't care if it was Christian, Jewish, Muslim etc..literature I would just throw it away. I do think it's your right if you want to be pissed about it. You could send back a Star of David I guess....but if it were me I would just let it go....too many other more important issues. I don't think they should send this stuff though....regards

ps....if you voice a strong opinion in this thread you need to put your full name by it (if not well known by ME)...otherwise I am going to start deleting.....you can edit a post to include your name...thanks for understanding

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Posted By: dstudeba

You brought this into your house thinking you knew what you were getting and you were rudely surprised. The seller doesn't know your situation. I do not appreciate any junk mail, but at least when it is in the mail, they paid to send it to me. You paid for the shipping on this undesired item. It is a slippery slope here, and where it becomes offensive is up to each person so in deference to the buyer, in my opinion, the seller shouldn't have sent it. I wouldn't be surprised if I found it ofensive even as a Christian.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I hope your thoughts are with these people:

[T]he freedom of individuals in their quest for truth and in the corresponding profession of their religious faith must be specifically guaranteed within the juridical structure of society. That is to say, religious freedom must be recognized and confirmed by civil law as a personal and inalienable right and must be safeguarded from any kind of coercion by individuals, social groups or any human power. This right to freedom of religion is not just one human right among many others but is rather a most fundamental right. Its observance is a true measure of a society’s commitment to uphold and defend the dignity and rights of all its members.-- John Paul II

"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves"--Abraham Lincoln.

And not these idiots:

"You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist."—Pat Robertson

"I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots.”-- George H.W. Bush

"The Roman Church is not another Christian denomination. It is a satanic counterfeit, an ecclesiastic tyranny over the souls of men, not to bring them to salvation but to hold them bound in sin and to hurl them into eternal damnation."-- Bob Jones Jr., of Bob Jones University


The house of God has many rooms; why do so many people insist on hanging out with the crazy aunt in the cellar?

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Posted By: Anson

You never know, that religious pamphlet may be worth something someday. After all, everyone keeps throwing them away like something else a hundred years ago.

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Posted By: Paul

I tend to wrap my cards in things that I don't value, like last week's classified ads. Perhaps this seller did the same thing.

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Posted By: Julie

I don't remember being overwhelmed by the goodness or the badness of the condition of what I won. But anyway: so I could NOT miss it--I think under the return address on the outside of the envelope, was printed "PRAY THE ROSARY!".

So I did. I wrote it out right here, in a thread of "get anything new?" Nobody complained. I had to ask Bob for a couple of words (he's an ex-Catholic).

I don't mind reigion with my purchases. I don't have any, so--why not get something new?

Just don't YELL it at me! Orexpect a convert...

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Posted By: Josh A.

I agree with Adam. It's a little touchy when you start mixing religion, politics, with business. Just treat everyone equally!

"I'm thinking about getting a plasma T.V., in case I need a transfusion."- Steven Wright

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Posted By: Judge Dred

I kind of tend to agree with the people that say this is like "junk mail". It's just a fact of life that we deal with. If you find inspiration in it then all the better, if it offends you then it will certainly find the trash can.

It's like those credit card applications that keep coming and coming... I don't like them and I feel that I have to shred the things so that it doesn't fall into the wrong hands. I've started doing what someone recommended:

Cut out all the personal information and send the form back in the prepaid envelope that they supply with the appications. It will cost the credit card companies money and maybe they re-think their mass mail strategy. Sorry to get off topic...

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Posted By: David Vargha

Get over it. Why is it that the "just turn the channel if you don't like it" crowd is so upset by a religious tract -- especially one that they believe has no validity? Is everyone so freakin' easily offended by everything these days?

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Andrew

“Many have made a trade of delusions and false miracles, deceiving the stupid multitude”
- Leonardo Da Vinci


“A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.” - English Proverb

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Posted By: agnosticdave

....as i've never had any whacko christians or jews try to pamphletize me yet on e-bay...yet...

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Posted By: Dave Yoken

After being away from the board for a few weeks, I decided to check out the latest posting tonight and glow in the glory of old baseball cards - away from the dull roar of the growing divide and hatred in our country concerning politics and religion (and the intermingling of both). Can't we keep this crap off this board? I'm sure there are MANY boards on the internet dedicated to these issues...Now back to the M116s I'm selling on eBay! (grin)

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Posted By: Steve

NEG him!

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Posted By: Matthew Jackson

Adam, when you went to the LA card club meetings in the church basement, did they have to cover up any offensive objects with sheets or did you just have to wear blinders to make sure nothing would "piss" you off? Anyway, what are the chances the seller just used some worthless junk to wrap the card securely? In summary -- Lighten up, Francis. And by the way, how has this thread escaped Leon's delete key? I see nothing related to vintage cardboard here.

Edited to say I did not pay for the 1959 Topps commons that were used to reinforce a recent purchase, but I kept them anyway. Anything I get that I want, I keep. Anything I don't want, I throw away. Simple as that. I just don't see why someone would get upset over it, we have all gotten things like that before.

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Posted By: J Levine

I try to stay out of these discussions generally but the last few comments irk me a little. Adam and I were talking about something similar at the Hollywood Park show a few weekends ago. Adam knows my views on this and knows I have a lot to say but I will limit it to the discussion above.

First off, if Adam, Matthew, or I went to a card show in a church (which I have) we knowingly went with the knowledge of what we would see. I think there is a large difference knowing that Adam had to pay postage for something he did not wish to get. It bothers me when others try to give their views to people who did not ask.

Think about it a different way...if I started packaging Planned Parenthood informational pamphlets and sent them out to all my customers on ebay (don't worry Leon, you won't get one in the T-213 <G>) many people in this nation would not only be offended, they would be angry. It is something I believe in and feel passionate about but they did not ask for my opinion on birth control, pregnancy, family planning, and abortions. Adam did not ask their opinion (and certainly did not pay for it), so why should he get it?

This, honestly, has very little to do with religous differences but the poor judgement and insensitivity of the individual who sent Adam the (unasked for) pamphlet.

The opinions expressed above are mine alone.

Joshua

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Posted By: barry arnold

As i peruse the thread, I note that some of the entries contain
ad hominem attacks/points.
We all know how often religious and political debates end up as
personal attacks with little or no good consequence.
Admittedly, some of the entries were conciliatory, some simply venting frustrations with friends, others hoping to clarify their
positions and others--I personally find these efforts 'talk among
friends.' The interspersed ad hominem has no place on this board,
however, and makes me vote unequivocally for the deletion of this
thread. I do this respectfully and with every belief that tomorrow
we friends will once again admire White Cap Matty.

all the best

Barry Arnold

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Posted By: steve k

There are religious ads on TV and radio, Hari Krishnas at airports, Jehovahs Witnesses knocking on doors, and once in a while someone puts a little pamphlet in with an ebay order. All of which could be considered intrusive. But it's a free country - learn to live with it.

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Posted By: MW

Several months ago, I received some unsolicited religious literature in the mail from a customer. I found it rather interesting. I didn't agree with everything that was written but I had an open enough mind to at least read and consider what was presented. I think the key is to hold on to a sense of the objective vs. subjective and to apply a little natural law to theological issues. In many respects, theology is but an extension of philosophy. Indeed, some of the greatest philosophers of the 20th century (John Paul II, G.K. Chesterton, C.S. Lewis) hold that faith and reason are allies.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I'm really offended by the remarks of this guy that initially
posted this thread. He has blamed Christians for the Holocust
and the decades of terror in the Soviet Union.

The facts of this past Century's history are very clear,
Hitler & his "goons" were atheists and Nationalist-Socialist
(NAZI) scum. Lenin & Stalin were avowed atheists, who only
worshipped the Socialist-Communist State they created. Their
reign of terror killed Christians, as well as other religious
and ethnic groups in Russia.

So, either this guy is very ignorant of this world's history,
or perhaps he is trying to push an agenda on this forum.
Leon, I am reluctant to tell you how to run this forum, but I
think you should have taken this thread down right from the
start. This forum can not be a platform for any such Anti-
Christian, or Anti-Semitic, or any other Anti-religious commentary.

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Posted By: identify7

Wow! Thirty one posts! What a tribute to Warshawlaw. And Leon hasn't hit the delete button yet. Whew.

I admit that I haven't read many of the posts, but heck, if everyone else is chiming in I will contribute a fifth of a dime too.

I never much liked being accosted by persons at transportation terminals nor by those who feel the need to visit my home uninvited to acquaint me with their religious views. The same goes for environmental activists, animal lovers and anyone who imposes their views on me even tho I never met them before.

I have had rather objectionable material sent to my house by animal rights groups and somewhat less objectionable materials from religious groups. I guess we all have. And until recently we were bombarded with telephone solicitations, surveys, etc. Anyone ever get spam e-mail?

In my humble opinion, this subject is not post-worthy. A percentage of card sellers are religious annoyances? Not newsworthy. A percentage of them are animal rights activists? Pro-War? Anti-choice (waddaya call that) oh yes, Pro-Life? etc.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

You must have an easy life if you get worked up over something as inconsequential as an unwanted non-obscene mailing. Who CARES? Throw it out and move on.

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Posted By: James Feagin

I really think it is a respect issue. I served a two-year mission for the LDS (Mormon) Church in Texas and was active in proselyting and going door to door. I have always found when you speak WITH (not at) someone, respect their views, serve them, there comes a situation where everyone is mutually edified. With every e-bay order I send out a card thanking someone for their order, and offer them a video about our church by calling a number. I feel this is respectful, and I have received wonderful feedback by more than a few. It is because of this I have had wonderful communication with my friends of all denominations. Again, I feel it is a respect issue. I genuinely want to share my religion with others in a way that is non-confrontational, inspires learning, and allows them to take the iniative if they want to and learn more. However, there have been times when I have personally seen the ugly head of "religionism", persecutions, belittlement (I hope that's a word), and fear mongering amongst the different sects. This does nothing to build a positive dialogue.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

The Soviets outlawed the free expression of religion, as all who study history would know--that's why the panicky Congress here added "under God" to the pledge of allegiance in the 1950s, because the Soviets were "Godless Communists". Which is pretty funny if you think about it, because it wasn't their pledge of allegiance that was amended.

I did not tar all Christians with the atrocities I cited; that allegation is typical straw man argumentation. I blamed Christians for the Inquisition, the Crusades and the Holocaust because it was avowedly Christian governments and avowedly Christian people who participated in these events. Not all Christians, as anyone with even a modicum of sense would realize, but the ones in power aided by hundreds of thousands of willing "normal" people. The actual historical facts are irrefutable. Poland, a 90%+ Catholic country, enthusiastically helped murder over 3 million Jews. My family's ancestral town in Poland is a good example of what happened. The Polish locals voluntarily and enthusiastically rounded up their Jewish neighbors, herded them into a barn, and burned it. Those who tried to run out were shot or beaten to death. A few escaped to tell the story. The Catholic Church, to John Paul II's consternation, stood by while all of this happened. There were many Catholic clergymen who tried to help, but the official position of the church was silence. In countries that refused to participate in the Nazi atrocities, like Denmark, where the King flatly refused to turn over Jews and instead ordered everyone to wear the yellow stars, few Jews were murdered.
I'm not pushing any particular position; to the contrary, I am pushing only freedom as a "position". The most precious freedom of all, which is freedom to be left alone. I posted the initial post only because I was offended at having someone else's religious beliefs thrown in my face as part of a baseball card purchase. I posted the quotes of intolerant idiots because they are intolerant idiots who do not believe in freedom. The fact that some of them claim to be religious Christians should be as offensive to Christians as it is to me. Where in the Gospels does Jesus tell you to hate other people?


Ted, go read, learn and then speak.

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Posted By: James Feagin

I think there is a mistaken notion that most Christian's in this country are all evangelical (in the modern sense) and members of the "Christian Coalition". Such organizations do not speak for me in a personal or political way. To the originator of the thread, I gather you would not be as offended if the tract was a little more civil in the reading.

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Posted By: leon

Right or wrong here is my reasoning for letting this thread go. My sole purpose (in my mind), in moderating this board, is to help make it an "interesting" and friendly place to come to talk about vintage baseball cards and related issues. Since Adam got some religious material in with his vintage card winnings I consider it on/off topic. Adam is one of the most frequent board participants so he does (by the way don't mean to offend folks talking about them in third person, or is it 2nd?) get lot's of leeway in topics discussed. I try to think of this as our family and permitting frequent contributors to discuss off topic things enhances that feeling, imo. I do believe this thread has got a little more "religious" than I would have preferred in normal day to day discussions. As the policy of the board (read Forum Faq's) states religion and politics are off limits. At the same time, as mentioned, this started out with a vintage card related issue. At this point I believe this topic has run it's course and am going to go ahead and let it die down by locking it. I think, right or wrong, it was ok to at least discuss. One thing I abhor is when folks are not permitted to voice their opinion. In college I turned from Business to Liberal Arts (my higher math skills leave something to be desired) so I got a good dose of being in situations where it was almost a mob mentality against my Republican views. I quickly learned that my views were not held by everyone. I hope this explains the reasoning behind me letting this go. I can be reached through the link at the top of the board, or during the day at lluckey@amherst1.com, if anyone wants to disuss this with me further. regards ...moderator dude