PSA'S OWN VERSION OF "BELIEVE IT OR NOT"

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Posted By: Robert Plancich

Several N54 members have insinuated that I have been "headhunting" when it comes to the topic of Dave Bushing and his authentication practices. Hopefully the following post will at least demonstrate that this is not the case.

Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA) offers the collecting public a service called PSA/DNA Vintage Certified Service which authenticates autographs. This service basically rests on the shoulders of two individuals - James Spence and Steve Grad.

When it comes to Spence I honestly don't know where to begin and since I don't want to be accused again of "incessantly rambling" I will make it brief. Spence is billed as the "world's foremost expert" particularly when it comes to the deceased HOF's and especially when it comes to Babe Ruth. Not so long ago, I received an anonymous mailing and it turned out to be a deposition of his that was taken pursuant to a lawsuit back in 2000. I won't bore you with all the details (although they are quite interesting) but there is one part wherein the question is asked of Spence regarding Babe Ruth. Spence first of all states that he has seen more Ruth autographs than anyone else and that he is the "foremost expert" when it comes to the Babe's autograph. Spence is asked which hand did Ruth use when he signs autographs and at first Spence answers that Babe was a left-handed hitter. The attorney asks him the question again and Spence answers that Ruth was left-handed and signs his name using his left hand. Just to set the record straight, Ruth was a left-handed hitter but signed his name with his right hand Jimmy! PSA literature also states that Mr. Spence has successfully completed a training course in Forensic Document Examination. It sounds fairly impressive, doesn't it? However, further investigation reveals that this was a mail-order correspondence course, an introductory course and basically you send in the money and they send you the book with the answers listed on the back pages. The PSA literature also states that the "U.S. Department of the Treasury (Internal Revenue Service) has also hired Spence as their sports authentication guru." I haved asked Mr. Spence, PSA's Corporate Legal Counsel (at the time) Armen Vartian and PSA president, Joe Orlando, exactly which IRS office hired Spence and in what capacity and all three of them have just flat out refused to offer any proof that this ever happened.

The PSA literature states that in "March 2002, PSA/DNA hired senior authenticator Steve Grad, who is part of a 'one-two' punch for their authentication services. For the past two years , Steve has worked as an authenticator for MastroNet, Inc.in Chicago, reviewing autograph items for 10 MastroNet auctions. A 22-year hobby veteran, Steve is highly regarded for his opinion on modern-era autographs as well as his knowledge of entertainment, political and historical signatures. Bringing a unique touch to the authentication process. Steve has been an active in-person autograph collector since 1980, obtaining over 100,000 signatures of sports stars, celebrities, musicians and politicians - all in person!" According to my research, In May 2000 Mr. Grad and his wife sold their autograph business to Oak Brook, Illinois based MastroNet where he went to work as a researcher and cataloguer. Also, in order for the esteemed Mr. Grad to accumulate these 100,000 all in-person autographs over a 22-year period he would have to collect 12.45 in-person autographs per day, 365 days a year for 22 years!

Finally, the PSA literature states and claims that these individuals have enormous exemplar libraries and use such high technology equipment such as the video spectral comparator, where in reality that amounts to a 10X power jeweler's loop. But the real take on PSA's Vintage Autograph Authentication process can best be summarized by their own literature and can be found on page two of their Sports Autograph Submission Booklet under the heading of "The Truth About Authenticating Autographs" which states the following:

"PSA/DNA Vintage Certified Service provides the opinion of the two most experienced and highly regarded autograph experts, using the most sophisticate examination technology and techniques available, and a way to permanently identify those items, which they consider to be genuine. However, the authentication of previously signed autographs is not an exact science and the possibility for error(s) does exist. PSA/DNA does not claim accuracy of its results 100% of the time. There is no express guarantee in connection with the PSA/DNA Vintage Certified Service and PSA/DNA disclaims any liabilities for errors. What we do guarantee is the acceptance of your autographed item by any major sports auction house-or your fee returned!"

I think that just about says it all. Thanks for nothing PSA!

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Posted By: PASJD

Robert what was the nature and outcome of the lawsuit in which Mr. Spence gave this rather startling testimony, if you know? Have you confronted anyone with your statistics on Mr. Grad?

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Posted By: Scott

you stated in the above post "...Not so long ago, I received an anonymous mailing and it turned out to be a deposition of his that was taken pursuant to a lawsuit back in 2000. I won't bore you with all the details (although they are quite interesting) but there is one part wherein the question is asked of Spence regarding Babe Ruth...

Robert - we discussed this exact incident on this board...to death...and you JUST NOW find out about it in an 'anonymous mailing'?

Where were you when the rest of the vintage baseball world was talking about this?

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Posted By: Robert Plancich

I am not quite sure on how to answer your questions Scott. I apologize for being behind the times on this and probably future issues that you have apparently already discussed. I guess i would have to say that during this time I have been trying to initiate some type of change within the "hobby". For example, filing complaint with the Attorneys' General Office in California and Pennsylannia (the state where Mr. Spence lives). Researching old catalogues and compiling a list of mistakes that PSA has made. Contacting the FBI and trying to get them to look into the PSA matter instead of looking for bat boys sitting in garages forging Babe Ruth baseballs.It was at this time that I became sidetracked with the game-used memorabilia and started focusing my efforts in that arena.

There is a line from a Hendrix song that sums up my response to your post "I didn't mean to take up all of your sweet time, I'll be getting back to you one of these, I don't need no more in this world, I'll meet you in the next world and don't be late, don't be late".

Now with that out of the way, Scott, while you were discussing this matter so long ago what did you accomplish back then and what have you accomplished since then besides discussing things "to death"?

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Posted By: Robert Plancich

I will try to find out. I believe that the case was eventually dropped but again I will check this out.

With respect to confronting anyone with the "statistics" I have emailed Spence and Grad and then they refused to answer any questions and referred me to PSA's corporate legal counsel, Armen Vartian, who has since left PSA. Vartian also refused to answer any questions and told me to no longer contact him and referred me to Joe Orlando, PSA president. Numerous emails to Orlando wert sent and he dodged each and every direct question tyhat I asked of him. Finally threatening to sue me on the basis of harrassment.

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Posted By: Scott

What do YOU plan to accomplish by re-hashing it?

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Posted By: martindl

Given that the man didn't know that the topic had been covered already, he can't really be accused of rehashing, can he?

He stated at top why he's posting this info - to attempt to show that he's not just headhunting Bushing.

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Posted By: PASJD

I did not know this information about Mr. Spence or Mr. Grad prior to Robert's post, so maybe that makes me a loser too in Scott's omniscient eyes.

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Posted By: leon

I for one don't have a problem with Robert so far.......but that is my opinion.....if you tell the truth it stands on it's own merit....rather timelessly. Quite honestly I had forgotten about this incident and didn't mind my 3 minutes it took me to read it. It gives me a tad more info to make decisions. I am not saying let's rehash everything all of the time. This wasn't bad though, imo ....later

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Posted By: jay behrens

I don't recall the Ruth situtaion being discussed. Then again, it may have happened before this forum move to Net54, a forum I never read. Besides, a topic being rehashed a couple of years later isn't so bad considering the number of new readers that have shown up in that time.

Scott, if one of the Richard's topics has already be covered in your extensive years on the board here, move a long if you have nothing worth while to contribute. There are a lot of new people that ahve never heard about these topics and would like to know wbout them.

And don't claim that this can be found in a search of topics. You can't look for a topic that you don't know exists. I know I wouldn't look for Ruth signing left or right handed. Not something anyone would be actively checking out.

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Scott

In fact, I can't find anywhere in this thread where I called anyone a loser. If you think you are a loser, that's your prerogative.

I made my point, none of you got it - sobeit.

Robert - please continue beating the dead horse.

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Posted By: Scott

edited to remove comments, as responding to Jay is a waste of time.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Scott, you really are a funny guy and oh so subtle, lmao!!!

You seem to dislike Richard and his posts, so why do you keep responding? And using your same logic, why don't you quit posting about Richard, sicne you keep rehashing the same old topic about him all the time?

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Scott

Quite the contrary - I have exchanged several emails with Richard and find him very intelligent and interesting. Still, if he is going to put himself forward as someone who has researched the hell out of these issues and even has an organization created for that purpose, then in my opinion he should have been aware of the Ruth thing. I'll repeat, RICHARD should have been aware - I'm not saying novices should be aware of it. I'm not even claiming that JAY BEHRENS should remember the discussion.

In fact, I think it would be beneficial for this stuff to be available to EVERYONE, and I even suggested that Richard organize it on a web-site.

Do the novices know about the e95 Cobb reprint that was sold as real? (not the doctored one, but the one sold by our 'caramel collecting' buddy...or the fake t206 Wagner that one of our illustrious board members and domain name sellers tried to sell as real? What else can we drag up from the dead while we are at it? After all, newer board members NEED TO KNOW!!!

How about we just create biographies on each person we know in the hobby, listing all their mistakes, problems, personality flaws, etc.? Perhaps even perceived iq's, weight...

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Posted By: Scott

someone might decide to start with me.

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Posted By: PASJD

Who are you guys talking about?

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Posted By: Scott

geez - see, I do read Jay's posts. He has subliminally convinced me to start referring to "Robert" as "Richard".

I didn't realize that Jay had such an effect on me - with that, I will go cry in a beer and watch football. ...wait a sec...

...and PSAJD - I don't know you, so don't take my notes personally.

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Posted By: Julie

in a Mastro auction several years ago. It didn't even HAVE an LOA. But it cost like it did.

Since the very first card I ever bought in a PSA holder (a '64 Rose), I have known that not only were they inaccurate graders, but--sneaky about it, as well! I'm hardly surprised to find out that their autograph authenticator doesn't know which hand Ruth signed things with (he was probably one of those kids--like my father--who was forced to write with his right hand in school, although his inclination was to use his left, as he did for other things).

Does Rickey Henderson sign with his left or his right hand? He catches one way, bats another (no cracks about him being too old to write!)

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Posted By: Scott

Julie, I took Jay's suggestion and tried to search on the Ruth topic - I couldn't find it; however, I DID find several posts by board members who stand by James Spence' ability to authenticate Ruth signatures.

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Posted By: PASJD

I am just bantering with you, I don't take (or intend) any of this personally.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

This is not be directed at ANYONE - so EVERYONE please don't feel that it is directed at YOU.

RP has made several postings on this board in DEC '04.

Comments have been made that RP is "bashing" people about OLD issues and the rehashing of these incidents isn't necessary.

Many comments are made in these threads regarding "the same old thing" and that these issues are passe and redundantly summarized and perhaps even surmised.

As a forum everyone is entitled to their opinion whether it be that "we're tired of the same old rants and raves" or "I think that they serve a purpose."

If someone wants to rebut RP about the facts that's great, but defending RPs position or calling it a waste of time isn't necessary unless of course there is information that can be produced stating that his facts are not correct and it is in fact "conecture" (which in turn misleads this forum).

If you like to read the material then that's your prerogative. If you don't like the material but can't find anything wrong with the material presented then there is no need to point out that it's old material and of no value.

I believe that this forum has many different visitors and it is made of up old time veterans and new collectors. What may be boring to some is an eye opening experience to others. This is what's great about the USA - we can ignore what we want and we can speak our minds - even if it's just to say we can't stand a PERSON, PLACE or certain SUBJECT matter. Ok, I'm starting to ramble on so I'll pull my fingers from my key board and virtually shut up now....

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Posted By: Scott

So did you just say: "everyone is welcome to their opinions, even if their opinion is that others aren't welcome to their's." ?

...the above was posted for all you "Strange Loop" fans out there.

Dred - we should combine our handles: "Dred Runscott". Right now I'm feeling more like "Judged Runscott"...not that I took your post personally.

"...just trying to keep the conversation lively." <== where did that quote come from? First person to answer this correctly gets a wonderful prize: I will never again respond to any of their posts, even if they involve my dog.

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Posted By: Joe P.

What Mal Content has create a beautiful image and photographic site, and I'm not being sarcastic, the site is beautiful.
One of my favorite images is the one of the children playing in a meadow in Central Park.

The site is almost like Deadwood City, a ghost town.
WHY?

Why does this same person always attempts to hijack a thread by someone that's trying to do something?

Having met this person, the only conclusion that I can come up with is that this person is totally soured with life.
He's soured with everything and everyone around him, and he wants to spread the joy.
Don't mistake his sarcasm for humor.
The man is humorless.
The man could be a contributor, but the sourball in him prevents that.
The strange part is that he shouldn't be getting cute with anyone. ... thus runScottierun.

Keep that up, and the world will be his Ghost Town.



I hope that he shakes himself out of that funk.
He has a lot to offer.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

So did you just say: "everyone is welcome to their opinions, even if their opinion is that others aren't welcome to their's." ?

An interesting twist - wouldn't it be interesting to be able to filter content in such a way. Unfortunately filters aren't a part of this forum. It would be nice to have the capability to not have to see what we have individually deemed offensive. We do have the ability to ignore the posts.


Dred - we should combine our handles: "Dred Runscott". Right now I'm feeling more like "Judged Runscott"...not that I took your post personally.

We all share the same interest in what is supposed to be a fun hobby. Scott, I don't judge people here. In fact, I find your posts, along with a lot of others, very entertaining, informative and of great value. Combining our names to Dred Runscott could be interesting. We both seem to be somewhat enslaved to this forum but neither of us needs to file suit to free ourselves from it either.

...just trying to keep the conversation lively." <== where did that quote come from? First person to answer this correctly gets a wonderful prize: I will never again respond to any of their posts, even if they involve my dog.


I would never criticize your dog. We all have to draw the line somewhere.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

last i can remember the "just trying to keep the conversation lively" is from the new ford commercial with steve mcqueen.

yes?

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Posted By: Scott

Scott E - hint: it is from a movie.

Dred - sorry for offending you. I was trying to lighten things up a little with humor, as the quote at the end implied...actually, stated.

Joe P - ...never mind.

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Posted By: Julie

it was O.K. to post that we didn't like--er hated, somebody's guts. I believe I've been zapped (had my post censored) for saying something like that. And for a hell of a lot of other reasons, too! Watch out, Wonkaticket, I feel a revival of gifs coming on...

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Posted By: Scott

But this is a vintage baseball discussion forum and I've decided to refrain from responding to any of your posts until you start actually discussing something related to baseball...anything.

The pissing contest is over.

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Posted By: dennis

if i get the movie right do i get the big chill????

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Posted By: Scott

yes, that was an unintended pun but I wish I had thought of it

I will let you trade your prize to another board member if you wish - it might actually be very valuable!

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Posted By: Tom

I told you people that the fat lady has not quit singing. Bill, what happened to the 2 pictures of Jim Thorpe that I emailed to you. You posted the front of each card, well show the backs. I made a statement right here on network 54 that said, "justice will prevail" and it will. To the gentleman that wrote "BELIEVE IT OR NOT" that is a very interesting story need I say more. This fits right into place. Like I said, on my previous post I have been all the way to the Top then down to the Bottom with PSA. I am going to tell network54 just like I told PSA it's not over until I say it is "WHEN JUSTICE PREVAIL" One last thing you are right Scott I am not going away. I believe that I have the same rights as anyone to make comments on this forum as anyone.

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Posted By: eric p.

i believe what robert is saying and i appreciate him sharing the information with me and others who are in the dark about certain subjects, i don't post often but all i have to say is thanks to robert and to all of the other nice people i have met on this forum such as leon, scott b., and andy.