Here are a couple of PSA Authentic trimmed cards

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I thought they did not do this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31718&item=5151137858&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31718&item=5151137862&rd=1


Can anyone shed light on this??

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Posted By: T206Collector

At first blush, I was annoyed, but upon reflection it's not a bad way of getting trimmed cards identified in the market, to protect unsuspecting buyers. Of course, unscrupulous sellers will just crack them out...

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Posted By: leon

But with all of the things I have thought about this subject, so far, I think it's a good idea. I am sure after some debate I will have some other info, and maybe ideas, but I have always thought I would prefer an "authentic" label over a grade label. This could have an impact on the PSA 11 gem mint, pristine, perfect, type grades though. If I can have a card that I know has been given a 3rd party, that I respect, going over then I can determine what grade it is myself. Then those erased pencil marks on the back of blank backed cards become less significant albeit should still be noted. Again, this is a very debatable subject with many good "points of views" to it. I like the idea......regards

ps....damn, I just reread this and thought I sounded like a politician- sorry 'bout that

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Posted By: John J. Grillo

It's a win-win situation all the way around...the collector pays cash to have cards encapsulated, the card is trimmed but yet authentic so the grading company appeases the customer by encapsulating the card and labeling it authentic...both SGC and GAI do the same as well.

If the card is ever sold at an auction or privately in the future, the potential buyer has the piece of mind knowing he/she is buying an authentic, yet trimmed card. (Provided the grader(s) is/are expert enough to know what they're dong)...

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Posted By: jay behrens

SGC does not slab trimmed or altered cards. I wish they would, but they don't at this time.

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: steve k

I predicted this awhile back that PSA would eventually grade trimmed cards precisely like this. Maybe PSA was already doing this in special areas all along, but this is the first time that I have seen it. This is a good idea of course for PSA because it makes them more money, but I also think this is also a good idea for collectors, especially for pre-WW2 cards.

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Posted By: Aaron

I think this is a terrific idea for PSA (as well as GAI & SGC). Hopefully, a healthy market will develop for authentic, but altered cards. People who might not otherwise be able to afford a particular card and/or don't mind trimming because they like the look of the card will now have a legitimate alternative.

I think if some shady (and not shady dealers) realize they can achieve higher sales from a PSA Authentic than a PRO 10, they might be less inclined to send their card to a shyster grading service like PRO and won't try to hide the fact that their cards are trimmed anymore. The happy side effect is that shyster services like PRO will be pushed out of their niche market (deceptively grading and concealing trimmed or otherwise altered cards).

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Posted By: dan mckee

I too like the idea but the said thing is that they still return cards ungraded and as trimmed????? Where is the consistancy??? Oh, that is right, maybe I should send the Herpolsheimer's to these brain trusts to see if they are real!!!!!

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Posted By: PASJD

One wonders how many similar cards in 7-9 holders really belong in "Authentic" holders.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

All of them have been grading trimmed cards.

A few of SGC...10 and 20 w/ severe rounded corners are trimmed
PSA 1 & 2's many of those w/ severly rounded corners trimmed
GAI 1.0 1.5 2.0 2.5 severly rounded corners, etc...etc...


Paper just does not dissapear .How many times would you have to throw a card against the wall for the paper to dissapear, this was supposedly a game played back when these cards came about.

Cards were obviously cut in a stop sign shape and the egdes perforated as such.

Iam very particular of centering and corners when I buy, if I do have lower graded cards is mainly due to creasing.

This is all done for the sake of the buck.

I just try to spend mine wisely.

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Posted By: John J. Grillo

My understanding is that all of the big 3 will slab a trimmed card at the request of the customer and label it "authentic" or in the case of SGC "AUT"...again, normally the customer will send in a trimmed card and notify the company in advance that the card is most likely trimmed; next they ask the company to slab the card if it is indeed trimmed. Even though a card is labeled authentic and encapsulated, that card cannot be part of their registry.

Again, this is my understanding...

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Posted By: dan mckee

I have never seen a trimmed card with severely rounded corners, what is the point??

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

Hi Dan from Dan - they were already trimmed and the aging covered up the trimming. That much paper just doesnt dissapear.

If so, then how can you have so many various shapes to corners that are the same age?

you can play with cards all that you want , but the paper doesnt just go flying off the corners of it .

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Posted By: dan mckee

What?? All 4 corners do not have to be worn the same. I have seen 1 corner worn and 3 sharp. It depends on how the cards were stored and handled. Unequal wear doesn't mean trimmed. Dan.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

I like the idea of the grading services placing an "authentic or aut" assignment to cards that may be trimmed or otherwise altered. This will allow collectors to purchase an item and know that it's at least real (unless the grading service blew it).

I just wonder what this is going to do to the price of trimmed cards that are "authentic" or "aut" that look much nicer than their graded "2" or "3" cards. It will be pretty interesting to see people actually bidding on items they otherwise wouldn't.

The market will dictate acceptance and price structure for these cards.

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Posted By: hankron

I hope PSA does a great job at detecting trimmed cards, and all the low lifes trimming cards and sending them in will be charged the normal grading fee to have their cards returned with the label 'trimmed.'

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Posted By: tbob

PSA told me that they would not grade any of my 1909 Obaks which were hand cut (as almost half of them were, as opposed to the 1911 and 1912s which were almost never hand cut) as authentic, instead returning them to me ungraded and designated "trimmed."
SGC flatly refuses to grade cards as authentic. Period.
I am not aware that GAI is grading cards as authentic either, where they have been trimmed.
I don't know where you guys are getting your information...I must not know the right people or something because my trimmed and some not trimmed cards come back "trimmed" and not graded, not "authentic."

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Posted By: steve k

<<< Paper just does not dissapear .How many times would you have to throw a card against the wall for the paper to dissapear, this was supposedly a game played back when these cards came about. >>>

You are totally incorrect about this. Paper does "disappear" on cards. Anyone who has ever played poker, etc., with playing cards notices the way cards wear through constant handling. Basically in the early 1960's all my friends and I ever did all summer was play baseball and "flip" baseball cards. We only had a very finite amount of money to buy cards so once the money was spent buying a limited number of cards, basically the same cards circulated amongst us throughout the summer depending on who was hot or cold at flipping them. Certain cards you remembered such as star cards which you wouldn't flip unless they were the last cards in your pile. When you lost them, you looked forward to trying to win them back and recognized them. I remember how these cards used to wear throughout the weeks as the paper rounded and "disappeared" especially of course on the corners. I still have all my cards from the early 1960's which of course are all untrimmed with natural wear. There is a wide variety of wear patterns on the cards.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

SGC does not grade cards Authentic. It has been brought to there attention but at this time they are not authenticating cards.

AS far as paper not just disappearing, I think all you need to look at is any old paper throughout history, the wear on the paper that is on so many pieces of paper, I really do not think this many people throughout history have spent time trimming this paper and then putting wear on it. Put a card in your wallett for a year and see what it looks like.

Happy Holidays

Lee

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Do these have there bottoms cut off?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5150512440&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5150512766&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

A little help not familiar with all OJ styles.

Lee

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Posted By: warshawlaw

from PSA's web site:

"PSA will not grade cards which bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any other forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity.

PSA will not grade cards cut from sheets that can be obtained in a normal fashion.

If the grade of your card is available and is listed with one of the following grades, this card was determined to be un-gradable for the following reasons. N-1 Evidence of Trimming - When a card’s edge has been altered, a card doctor may use scissors, scalpel, cutter, or any other cutting instrument. A trimmed card may show one of the following: Hook up or down, have one razor sharp edge, a difference in toning along the edge, a wavy look."

Yet here PSA is authenticating trimmed cards. WTF am I missing?

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Posted By: Judge Dred

I would guess that they forgot their gradings standards or they haven't updated their website in a long time. I don't think they have anything on their website that defines "Authentic." I called PSA and requested a definition of "Authentic" and the three people with whom I spoke couldn't provide a consistent answer.

Now the questions are:

• How do I get my trimmed cards slabbed by PSA?
  
• Do I make this request to them directly?
  
• Does the trimmed card automatically get assigned the "Authentic" designation by default?
  
• Do I have to pay more to have the card placed in an "Authentic" slab?
  

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

I think that PSA considers the "grading" of a card as the assignment of a numerical grade. When a card is submitted it undergoes the authentication process and the grading process.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

What's worth more? A PRO grdaed 8 or a PSA Authentic?

Thoughts?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Jeff:

Since BOTH are trimmed... the answer would be whichever card looks the best to the naked eye.

But then again, since ANY card can be trimmed to look like it has SHARP CORNERS...

almost every PRO 8 started out as a lower graded card before the trimming took place.

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Posted By: steve k

<<< What's worth more? A PRO grdaed 8 or a PSA Authentic? >>>

My opinion is the PSA authentic is worth more. Also my opinion is that a company such as Pro which cannot be trusted in regards to trimming, also cannot be trusted in regards to authentication either although in all fairness I have not read any reports about them grading fakes. But I don't intend to find out because I will never purchase a Pro graded card.

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Posted By: Robert A

Are you guys then saying that PSA authentic always means trimmed?

Maybe I should ask the grading companies themselves, but I assume that each has their own definition of what "Auth" means.

robert a

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Posted By: john/z28jd

authentic doesnt always mean trimmed or that theres something wrong with the card that makes in ungradeable.I know this because i know someone who sent PSA a Cobb,green to get graded thinking it was a 7.PSA wanted to grade it 2 because it had a very small pen mark partially erased on back.When they told him they gave him the option to get it graded authentic instead of a 2 which he took.

It wouldve been the nicest 2 ive ever seen but hes leaving it graded authentic instead just so he has a story to tell

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Posted By: Robert A

That's very interesting.
thank you.
robert

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Posted By: Scott

So I'm guessing that if the card had other types of alteration it would say something different on the second line. I would also assume that if it had multiple alterations it might say something like: "E95 Cobb - Authentic" and on the second line: "extensive alteration".

This is all assuming that the grader actually detects the alterations. We know from examples previously discussed that professional restoration services are easily capable of producing alterations that NONE of the "big 3" are capable of detecting: re-coloring, glueing, bleaching, building up corners,etc., a sad situation which renders the "authentic" tag meaningless...excuse me, it renders the other grades meaningless. In fact, I would argue that PSA has no business producing any tags OTHER than "authentic".

I don't like the idea of anyone slabbing cards as "authentic" because this implies that their slabbed cards have NOT been trimmed (or otherwise altered), thus giving them even more perceived authenticity (when they actually deserve less). For instance, the famous t206 Wagner - if you have an un-graded, but slabbed "authentic" Wagner sitting next to it, the deception (and value) is increased. The simple act of slabbing altered cards as "authentic" gives the false impression that PSA is capable of always telling the difference, and we know that isn't true.

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Posted By: Scott

I said that the "big 3" aren't capable of detecting alterations such as re-coloring, glueing tears, adding paper. I actually believe that all three are capable of detecting any such alterations;the problem is that although the technology is available, it obviously isn't cost-effective to go to the trouble of looking that closely at ALL cards. Perhaps trimming is a different issue - others can speak to this.

All I would ask is that the major grading companies at least have access to the tools necessary to spot such alterations, and to USE THEM for high-profile cards (big name HOF'ers such as Ty Cobb, and cards with high book values).

If someone out there thinks it's actually true that the technology does not exist to spot all re-coloring, glueing, corner build-up, let us know - that's some information we should all be aware of.

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Posted By: Robert A

Scott.
I agree. PSA can not tell the difference in many cases, and therefore shouldn't be throwing "authentic" on capsules when they feel like it. I believe that they get pressured into it by the owners of certain high-priced items (Although the trimmed N28s at the top of this post are not high-priced). I've never seen a PSA card encapsulated as "trimmed." I've seen trimmed PSA cards encapsulated as "authentic." I assumed that they didn't know they were trimmed. I didn't know they were doing it on purpose.
robert

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Posted By: Scott

I don't know about that. I think it's even easier for a trimmed card to "mistakenly" end up in a slab than a card with other alterations - I don't have any reason to believe that any grading company other than PRO is knowingly slabbing trimmed cards.

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Posted By: Robert A

Scott.
I don't understand. Aren't the cards at the top of this post purposely slabbed as "trimmed" by PSA?

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Posted By: Scott

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