Grading Pre-WW2 cards

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Posted By: steve

I continue to enjoy this wonderful forum. Thank you. Sorry to bore anybody but…I very actively bought, traded, flipped, etc., cards as a kid in the early sixties. I kept all the cards so I know that these are all genuine, unaltered, etc. I am currently selling off most of them on ebay and want to concentrate on obtaining only very high grade PSA 50s & 60s Superstar cards and also Pre-WW2 cards such as Goudeys, T206, etc. Very high grade Pre-WW2 cards are a bit out of my price range so I’ll probably windup buying lesser grades both graded and ungraded. I thoroughly enjoy collecting but the businessperson in me still wants to buy a genuine card for the lowest possible price. I also collected coins as a kid and am rekindling that interest also. With coins, if they are cleaned or altered, that greatly decreases the value. I imagine it must be that way with cards but maybe not. With the information gathered since reading the posts in this fine forum, I’ve come to learn that these cards get trimmed, altered, cleaned, bleached, etc, etc, etc. Is there a website or book that anyone can recommend as far as looking out for and spotting these types of cards with information and guidelines on how much, say if a card has been cleaned, does it generally deduct from its value. My instincts would say to never buy a trimmed card at any price but it seems as though with certain scarce Pre-WW2 cards that "problems" are acceptable if the price is right. I realize that grading these Pre-WW2 cards seems to be more of an art than a science which to me makes collecting them even more interesting. Any and all responses are greatly appreciated. Thanks again!

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Posted By: Julie

I think you're LOOKING at the best book on trimmed and altered cards, and fakes. It's the Forum. Also, try www.cycleback.com, David Rudd (Hankron's) website. Personally, I see no reason to buy between-the wars (after ww1) cards in any altered condition, except perhaps for the rarer ones, like GC Millers--and even those you CAN find whole and unaltered. Pre WW1, too, for the more common sets, you can usually find them unaltered--ALL THIS IS AT A REASONABLE PRICE, in lower grades. But--for instance, the Texas Tommy I posted in another thread (trimmed and creased, and still $250 10 years ago), Breich-Williams 1903, some of the rarer E cards, Alleghenys 1904, --you take them as you find them. 19th century: a surprising number of 19th centurey cards have NOT been trimmed or altered, but here again, rebacked Old Judges, Mayos with touched-up backs, etc. are still fairly desirable, and much cheaper.

I noticed an interesting difference in your post between less desirable coins and cards: there's nothing wrong with cleaning a baseball card--if you can do it without damaging it! I suppose the patina on a coin is not to be removed. You don't bleach cards, but if it seems worth the risk, there's nothing wrong with taking a dry or even damp cloth to one. Ereasing of pencil marks (I have a '35 Goudey Ruth, McManus, etc. GD, which had a deep "1934" on the back in pencil which I removed--you can still see the dent though)is also O.K. But either cleaning or removal of marks can be very dangerous, especially with pre WW1 and 19th century cards. Bad experience has taught me that if it's dirty--there's usually a good reason for it, and let well enough alone.

Really interesting about the coin cleaning--didn't realize coins were like Shang dynasty bronzes.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Welcome to an incredible hobby and forum.

My first bit of advice to you is to look before you leap and learn about the cards and their prices before you slap down a small fortune on 1950's cards (these cards by and large have not increased in value for several years and are common enough that you can take your time and shop around). You can search for different cards on ebay and get a very clear idea of what things really cost. Throw out the "book" prices; they are inaccurate at best, sometimes low and sometimes high.

As far as condition goes, I would be extremely careful about buying any PSA graded card in ultra-high grade for two reasons: (1) they have garnered a rep in the last two years or so for erroneously encapsulating altered cards and (2) a criminal enterprise called "When It Was A Game" (WIWAG) took advantage of the easily tampered with PSA holders and replaced high grade cards with lower grade cards then resealed the holders and sold them on the open market. The FBI nailed those bastards, but no one really knows how many of these cards are floating around out there, nor does anyone know if any other criminals did the same thing. Your best defense is your eyes--learn what you are looking at and you will save yourself a lot of heartache. Buy the card, not the holder. IMHO the difference between a nice 8 and a 9 or a 10 is so minimal that people who buy the 9's are suckers. Buy a dozen 8's instead of one 10 and enjoy a broader and much more liquid collection.

In terms of older cards, your best defense to buying fake or altered cards is to go after the "collectors' grade" cards: VG to Ex-Mt. I would suggest buying SGC or GAI encapsulated cards to start, or buying raw cards from dealers with good reputations (The Vintage & Classic Baseball Collector--VCBC--publishes a survey that shows who is generally considered to be a good dealer and who is not). If the dealer has a long history and a solid money-back guarantee, I would be comfortable with mail order purchases. Otherwise, you risk a loss with every deal. You can also ask here for peoples' experiences with various dealers.

Run as far as you can from cards graded by PRO; they are usually altered.

I would also strongly recommend that you make as many of your purchases as possible in person so that you can study the cards firsthand.

Take a look at the web-based auctions of the major players in the field--Mastro, Lipset, Sloate, Lelands, etc.--You can get a feel for the high end market from these auctioneers.

Finally, with rare exceptions, do not give into greed and purchase those "great" deals on ebay through private auctions or from sellers with hidden feedback. Odds are they conceal this info from you for a reason. If you find a great deal in person and you know what you are doing, you can make a very satisfying purchase, but if you think you can "get over" on ebay, you are likely to be disappointed.

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Posted By: Hankron

If you plan on collecting T206s and Goudeys, the best thing for detecting problems in person is experience: buying, handling and examinging a vareity of the cards. As the the lower grade commons are affordable, you can gain experience, well, affordably. Once you are experienced, you will have an eye for what is genuine and for detecting most alterations in person.

I am working on issuing an authentication guide kit, which will include the printed and expanded guide once on my site, along with standard examination equipment and a variety of card, paper and printing samples. The samples will include geuine and reprinted cards so the collector can learn how to tell the difference, and will also possibly include items with alterations (I can never find a working pen when I need one, so we'll see). One of the major problems in issuing an authentication guide online or in print, is that the reader is miles away and can't ask inperson questions and we can't look at the same item at the same time. I thought the way to solve this problem would be to include with the book, a black light, microscope along with a wide varity of carefully picked out samples that are clearly labelled as to what it is and what they should be looking for. So, not only can the reader read about 1880s lithography and 1920s photoengraving, but he will have their own microscope and actual vintage printing samples to look at in their living room. Not only will the reader read about black light, but she will have carefully picked out paper samples to look at in their own living room ... I firmly beleive that with the kit, an inteligent and motivated beginner can learn the essentials to judging the authenticity of early baseball cards and early trading cards in general.

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Posted By: Hankron

Just brought to mind an observation I've long hand on collectors ... As there was no published or otherwise orgainzed information of wirephoto genre, two years ago I researched and issued a little guide on the subjejct-- including what the stamping, tags and ink marks mean, how you can judge the age by these markings, etc. I learned much of this stuff along the way (like why ACME stamps receive premums and what exactly is a wirephoto), so the experience was positve for me as a collector ... Anyway, I offered the booklet for sale. What I discovered was that the people who I knew were already knowledgeable, experienced and inteligent about the subject were the buyers of the booklet, and the people who knew nothing and needed the guide the most didn't purchase. At first, this genuinely surprised me. Then, it dawned on me that this pattern was natural, and explained why the first group was of collectors was knowledgeable about what they buy.

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Posted By: runscott

I agree with your assessment, but I still have used it plenty plenty of times. In other words, it was well worth it, but I would liked to have seen something more than just the really common back stamps.

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Posted By: Hankron

Scott, I agree that that would be an area worth researching. When someone comes out with a booklet on it, I will buy a copy.

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Posted By: runscott

I just thought that the list of back stamps would be larger than ten, and that some photographer stamps and explanations might also have made the book (like 'Conlon', 'Burke', 'Horner', 'Van Oyen', etc.), along with short explanations as to how to identify true ones. Also, a list of less common stamps and known date ranges - like the "Leader Sports" example I sent you - would be helpful (...if you saw a back-stamp in an auction you could look it up in the guide to see if anyone else had seen it before).

Just my thoughts, as a buyer of your books I know you are interested in hearing them.

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Posted By: Hankron

Scott, I one hundred percent agree that that would be a worthwhile catalog. It's not in my temperment to make lengthy detailed catalogs (it's like threading 100 needles to me). Such a catalog would have to be produced by someone else, though I would be happy to contribute if that person asked.

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Posted By: Julie

common photographer's stamps? Or what to look for in their prints? Maybe that, anyway. What am I going to get for my $$?

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Posted By: steve

Thank you all very much for the detailed and informative replies. A lot of interesting food for thought.

Julie - terrific information and guidance - thank you! Yes about the cleaning I was always told never to remove the wax from a card. That would ruin the card's value - but it seems as though it does not. I imagine though that PSA would grade a card with removed wax as some sort of surface wear. For those who submit cards to PSA that look like 9's and come back 6 or 7's, I have a feeling that wax removal and the surface effect from it may result in the reason for those lower grades.
Warshawlaw - enlightening information especially on those phony PSA cards - thank you! Yes you're right, this forum has been very clear on these substandard grading companies such as Pro. Good advice about ebay which I had not considered.
David - I checked out your website and very much look forward to buying your book "Judging the Authenticity of Early American Trading Cards." I completely understand how hard it is to write a book - I have one coming out that will be published in about three or four months. Sports related but not card related. I appreciate the tips - thank you!

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Posted By: runscott

I don't know that too many people other than myself (and you) would be interested in it anyway.

BTW - I almost have enough photo images now to create my "International Baseball history" web-page. I'll start with three sections: England (cricket mostly), Japan and France (one's a press photo). Seems weird, I know, but that's where most of my non-US photos are coming from.

If anyone has non-US baseball photos, please share.