These two cards should grade the same???

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris (the illini)

No offense to the seller, but if this is a GAI 1.5

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2782226435&category=31718

Then isnt this card a little undergraded???



The Ward has a uniform back stain and a 1/4 inch tear on the bottom front (only on the top layer of the card), but c'mon -- is it the equal of the above card???

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

There's an unbelievably wide range of cards that fall within each of the lower grades, and a very tiny range of variation in each of the higher grades. At one time, this may have reflected market realities, when investors dominated auctions. They had no use for lower grade cards, so they lumped cards with a tiny tear and major damage into the same grade.

But with true collectors making a comeback, especially in vintage issues, this just doesn't make sense anymore. Collectors draw a huge distinction between your Ward and that Cobb. I'd be very happy to own your Ward and have no interest in that Cobb (even though it's one of my favorite cards). I think the prices on ebay now reflect this distinction. Maybe the grading companies will someday recognize it too, and come up with a finer breakdown of grades at the lower end, just like they have very fine distinctions at the high end (who really can tell the difference between a 9 or 10 or the SCD/Spinal Tap 11?)

[Archive]

Posted By: Lee Behrens

My Suggestion would be to use the hundred point scale for with the second number being the degree of the grade. To me appearance is one of the most important factors in buying a card, not the over all grade. The grading companies could easily apply this type of grading since they already do it on the high end they could easily do it on the low end.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Grade Tech was on the right track when they broke down the grading into seperate catagories and even listed what each score was. Too bad good idea disappeared with a company sorely lacking in experience.

Jay

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris (the illini)

Some sort of distinction needs to be developed for low and mid grade cards, just as there is for high end stuff. To lump cards such as the two above in the same (although technically correct) is inaccurate in my opinion. If grading companies can do it for high end cards, there is no reason they cannot do it across the board...

[Archive]

Posted By: brian p

As a non-slabbed lower grade collector, I have always thought the grading companies, and in particular PSA, just dump cards into their lowest grades without much thought or concern that there are different levels of appeal amongst these collector cards. PSA has always been the worst offender--tell me it is not ridiculous to only have three grades (VG, G and P/F) for cards VG and lower.

I don't support any grading company efforts, but if you are going to do it, at least do things with care. For those registry/ego collectors distinctions between these lower grades don't make a bit of difference, but if some of us average Joes were to purchase a lower condition card sight unseen based upon the grade only, we might end up with either a decent card or road kill suitable only for those with married cousins in their family tree.

Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Well Chris I can speak from first hand knowledge as I ounce owned the Ward you are showing. I have about 225 different N172's all graded by SGC, my grading company of choice. When it comes to the card in question, (the Ward) the rip you speak of is a glued down repair which in my opinion should make the card a little over graded, and no I did not repair this car myself. I purchased it from Lew in the state it is in. When it comes to Old Judge's the most important part of the card, to most collectors, is the photo. In the case of the Ward it has a GREAT photo, the reason I purchased the card, but unfortunately has been repaired. It does present very well, but I do believe it to be graded very fairly. I will be the first to admit that SGC does graded all over the board when it comes to N172's but these cards are very tough to grade constantly for every collector. I am not collecting them for their grades, but for completion. I do think it is unfair to compare the grading of an E card to a N172. Just my opinion!!!
Trevor Hocking (snider4prez)

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris (the illini)

Thanks for the input Trevor; I know that you once owned this card, as I acquired it from you.

I am a little confused about the intent of your post. I am not trying to deceive anyone about the quality (or lack thereof) of the Ward; I was merely trying to point out what a large difference exists when grading lower end cards with respect to the overall appearance. I do not think that the fact that one card is an e102 and my card is an N172 has anything to do with that.

As for the "repair" of the card, if you want to talk to me about that, please email me.

[Archive]

Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Chris,
I mean no offense about the card at all. As I mentioned in my previous post, the card has amazing appeal, the reason I bought it and still regret trading it. As for the meaning behind my post, I was just trying to say that N172's are a totally different than most other cards as far as grading goes. I think the card is amazing I just wanted to point out the reason I believe that it was graded the way it was. I can see how it could be taken the wrong way. I think by adding a foreign object like glue can cause a nice looking Old Judge to get graded lower. Cases in point the Von Der Ahe you traded me. By the way I still haven't found a Ward to replace it yet. Sorry for the confusion. Man every time I try to post a comment it always gets looked at as negative.
Trevor

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris (the illini)

No offense taken trevor -- I was just a little worried that you felt that i was dissatisfied with the card (and our trade).

Hope the OJ hunting is going well!

Chris

[Archive]

Posted By: quan

if glue was used on the card, wouldn't that constitute "restoration"...therefore ungradeable? I remember tbob had an e94 cobb that had a red ink mark mysteriously appear while at SGC and it was rejected.

[Archive]

Posted By: runscott

If coloring in paper loss in the background deems a card un-gradeable, why not glueing it back together?

I once purchased an SGC-graded card where all four corners had been cut off in a rounded manner - very rounded. This was definitely trimming, but it was graded just the same. Only reason I can think that it got slabbed was that there was no intent to deceive. If anyone wants to see it, just email me for a scan.

[Archive]

Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Chris, Sorry again. I'm glad I was able to clear it up. The Old Judge hunting is going well. I'm now at the point when things get hard to find and more expensive. I just bought a very nice lot of 15 cards that should be on my registry very soon along with some other's I have grabbed up this past year. 2003 was a good year for Old Judges. Now If I can accumulate half the number as I did last year I will be very pleased. I just wish KitYoung would stop buying soon.

Quan, I believe that a glue repair on a Old Judge would be different than one on a E card. The N172's where originally assembled with glue. I know it is still a restoration but the card was graded according to the cards condition. Also who's to say that the card wasn't glued in the period it was produced, but I think I opening a whole other can of worms hear. It's really all up to the individual to determine if the card fits in his collecting world. What's the saying you guys always use, "BUY THE CARD NOT THE HOLDER!!!!" The Ward is a very nice example but I believe graded fairly. Ounce again just MY opinion.
Trevor

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris (the illini)

If the card was glued, it has since come undone. Prior to having it encapsulated the tear was separated from the rest of the cardboard. I cant say for sure, but this may be why the restoration attempt was not caught by the graders. Just my guess...

[Archive]

Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Hey Scott, How's things going? Long time no talk. You should drop me an e-mail.

I think that as long as a card is not restored to deceive or gain a higher grade from a grading company then it is ok. Now let me make myself a little clearer here. If a card has an ink mark on it because someone got crazy with the old fountain pin then it should and would be graded accordingly, but if some uses a pen to correct a problem on the card and pass it off as if the correction was never made, then I believe that to be deceiving. In the case of the Ward, the glued down photo is very apparent on the card and the tear is still noticeable and further more preserved the cards photo, the most important part. Please remember that this was graded a 1.5, where not talking about a low end card getting graded into a high end slab here.
Trevor

[Archive]

Posted By: runscott

...but rather the issue of "to slab or not to slab", regardless of grade.

And regarding the "intent to deceive", what if a card were cut along a border with left-handed snub-nosed scissors?...still trimmed, though obviously no intent to deceive - it WOULD NOT get slabbed. But if someone to draw a smiley face on a card with a black marker, it would get slabbed with "MK", but if paper loss on a blue background card were expertly colored in, it would not get slabbed. If a card were glued back together...perfectly...it would not get slabbed, but this one did.

I just think the grading companies are all over the board on these "alteration" issues.

[Archive]

Posted By: runscott

Sometimes I think it makes sense to restore. For instance, if a chunk fell off the front of your OJ, and you could dab a spot of glue on the back to make the card once again appear perfect, it makes sense to forego the grade and have a card that looks far nicer. Otherwise, what do you do? - get the card graded and then tape a tiny bag containing the chunk (possibly the player's head?) to the slab?

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I agree completely. I bought a very nice N321 (Hess) recently that had, most likely, a dab of glue put on it to put a small portion of the back (pull) back on. It is the ORIGINAL back and there is absolutely no glue showing anywhere. SGC rejected it saying it was repaired. NO SHI*......unfortunately, I am doing the registry thing (more for show and less for "I have the highest graded" bs....).....so I am selling it. I think we also need to remember that for about $10 we can't expect a thesis (in time anyway) for each card. I am really not sure if I think the rejection was warranted but it got rejected regardless. Even my pick of grading companies (SGC) makes me less than happy many times........still, all in all, I prefer their unbiased expertise.....just rambling thoughts between sips of coffee.....

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris (the illini)

First of all, let me say I am not advocating the restoration of cards with glue, or any other medium.

But what is the difference between using glue to hold a piece of card together, and scotch tape? A taped card obviously (at least it should) grade poor, but it would get graded. How is this any different than using glue??? Is it because you can "see" the tape?

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris (the illini)

My post is a little confusing -- I meant to say a card that has had tape on it for whatever reason; not a card that is being held together by tape...

[Archive]

Posted By: runscott

"intent to deceive"

But if you a bad restorer, then your cards might get slabbed anyway.

[Archive]

Posted By: TBob

I have a nice E98 orange Matty which now resides in a PRO holder because SGC and GAI wouldn't grade it because a very tiny (and I do mean tiny) fleck of color came off in the upper right area near the corner and it was neatly glued on by me using a tweezer and without knowledge that it would become ungradeable and also knowing that it was a card I would not sell down the road. I had it slabbed simply because I didn't want to take a chance on further "flecking" so the holder and grade are irrelevant. Likewise I have a very nice gold E94 Jennings which is EX+ except for a tiny paper loss which was replaced with glue and it is likewise in a PRO holder for the same reason.
Bottom line is the cards are considered "doctored" or "altered" because of the tiny replacement or repair, call it what you want, while I see badly trimmed vintage cards sail through the grading services getting 7's and 8's and cards which look like they passed through someone's alimentary canal getting 1.5s or 2s.
I hope all collectors of caramel cards realize that they are often time bombs waiting to explode. I have NEVER had a tobacco card "detonate" on me but I have had my fair share of E94s and E98s purchased from reputable dealers "explode" because of their fragile condition/consistency. For that reason alone I have all my E94s graded and slabbed by SGC and GAI (most of them). Damage prevention.

[Archive]

Posted By: slacks

anon post

Elliot

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

but a card with a stain and a tear is a poor to fair card. I agree that the eye appeal on the OJ is a lot better than the Cobb, which looks like it had been on the wall of an outhouse for 80 years and is overgraded (it is poor). Be that as it may, a card with two major flaws like that (especially the tear) is in fair condition.

Personally, I love to acquire cards with technically low grades but great eye appeal. I think purchase prices reflect this more and more.

Buy the card, not the slab...didn't someone say that once??