RAFAEL PALMEIRO

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

This guy is without a doubt one of the most underrated hitters of all time. Fantastic numbers every single season, atleast 30-40 homers and a ton of RBI'S. How are you going to keep this guy out of the HOF? He's quieter than Eddie Murray, but much more personable.
thoughts? brian

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Posted By: jay behrens

he'll prolly go, but not on the first ballot. He might have awesome numbers, but can you honestly think of any time when he produced a important or clutch hit in a significant game?

Jay

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Jay
It's hard to get a key hit when you never play in a key game. Can we say Ernie Banks? The Rangers and the O'S haven't given him much of a chance to shine. Neither team can get anyone out. later brian

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Posted By: jay behrens

true, but there are all-star games and spoiler games, though people tend not to rememebr those much either.

Jay

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Posted By: B Hodes

Though we may sometimes wish it was. There are already over 200 player in many who accomplished far less than Palmeiro already has. Simply looking at recent players who played similar power positions that we have some firsthand understanding of --> I think it will be difficult to say that players like: Eddie Murray, Al Kaline, Billy Williams, Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, Andre Dawson (not yet a HOFer) and Tony Perez were any better than he was by the time he is through.
Palmeiro (maybe the Cubs should have kept him instead of Grace) will likely end his career with:
500+ HR
about 3000 Hits
a .290 + avg &
a few Gold Gloves.
= Relatively easy and deserved HOF induction
(Yes, I know he takes Viagra -- or at least endorses it -- which is truly ground breaking for an active athlete).

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

I know your a Cubs fan and RP was on the Cubs.......

but what about Carmen Fanzone?

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

.....until after he was in the Hall to do that TV commercial for Viagra.

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

It doesn't have to be a key game. I still have trouble remembering Raffy hitting any or at least many key home runs. Has he ever hit a HR off of Clemens, Pedro, or [insert your favorite 5 pitchers here]? How often does he hit a home run to win a game or put his team ahead late?
I'm sure its largely my perception, but it seems like the guy, EVERY YEAR, piles on the numbers late in the season against teams going nowhere and pitchers who will end up being trivia questions, usually in late innings when the score is already five runs or more apart one way or the other.
On a kinda related note, remember when they kept track of game winning RBIs a few years back? The stat was disgarded, apparently because it did not give a true reflection of the most important hit/sac fly, etc. of the game. Still, even though flawed, I thought the stat provided some useful info. It would be interesting to see where Raffy ranked during those years.
Regards..............Todd

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Posted By: David Vargha

Against Pedro 5-16 .313 (all singles) with 3 BB's
Against RJ 1-21 .048 (1 single)
Against Maddux 1-6 .167 (1 single)
Against Kevin Brown 4-12 .333 (1 HR and 3 RBI's)
Against Clemens 27-88 .307 (3 HR and 10 RBI's) with 16 BB's
Against Mariano Rivera 4-16 .250 (1 HR and 2 RBI's) with 4 BB's

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Todd
It looks as though Palmiero has handled Clemens&Pedro fairly well, homeruns off of both as well as a high average. As far as taking advantage of late year pitching, check the numbers, there consistent throughout the season. This year is no different , he's been among the leaders in Homeruns, slug percentage and total bases all year. Give the man his do, he hasn't had the chance to make a big hit. Alot of players fail in postseason, ie Barry Bonds, Ted Williams, and Dave Winfield. later brian

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Posted By: Anonymous

Anonymous post deleted

Elliot

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Posted By: Hankron

I was being polite before, but IT'S TIME YOU QUIT POSTING ANONYMOUSLY! It is considere extremely rude

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Posted By: Nick

Here are his stats:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=120191

He has been the model of a great Major league player through out his carrer. While it is true his teams have not done well in the post season, he has a more than respectable record:

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_player_postseason.jsp?playerID=1201 91&statType=1

Unlike other sports where one person can win the game virtually on his own, in baseball each player can only bat once in every nine at bats. Whatsmore is he never misses a game.

Palmeiro is not flashy, he does not have a problem interacting with the press or fans. If he is not a first ballot hall of famer, baseball is sending the wrong message. They are saying being a nice guy, working hard and consistently over achieving is not good enough.

The fact that there is even a debate as to wheather or not he is a hall of famer, makes me shake my head.

As you can tell, I am a big fan of this guy!

Nick

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Posted By: TBob

then Palmeiro is a lock.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

500 HR and Gold Gloves??? This ain't Canseco we're talking about here. Add to that that he's a solid citizen and you have a prototypical HOFer.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

How many years can you point to where he was the best or even one of the top three players at his position. I think he has benefited from a time of inflated statistics and is a marginal HOFer at best. I would be interested to see how his total homers, as a percentage of major league homers, compares to other power hitters in the HOF. My guess, and it is just a guess, is not very well.

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Posted By: Hankron

While I am not confident that Rafael deserves to be in the Hall of Fame (agree with what Jay Miller said), what differentiates Rafael from Jose Canseco and similar is that Rafael was quality fielder. At his height he was amonst the best fielding first basemen.

In my mind, the biggest mistake that armchair HOFer votes make is focus on and only on batting statistics. Many act as if things like leadership, fielding and durability are qualities no more important than hair color or shirt number. In my opinion, the prototypical Hall of Famer is the person that will best help your team win both during the regular season and playoffs. Pure batting stats definitely are certainly important, but far from everything Irrelevant to Albert Belle's hitting numbers (which were great), he was a bad influence on the team and he coulndn't field if his butt was on fire.

On a similar strain, I think people who are mesmerized by pure statistics miss what a player is about, and what baseball is about. Only people who have no clue sit there and measure Ozzie Smith's quality as a baseball player, by comparing his batting statistics to Ty Cobbs or his home run totals to Willie Mays. They have no concept about why the manager put Ozzie on the field. They probably think if they could have put Jose Canseco or Albert Belle in at shortstop, the Cardinals would have been a better team.

The problem is that perhaps 50 percent of baseball is measurable (batting average, home run totals, win/loss), while the rest is not. Since they can't find the unquanifiable printed in a book or on a web page, many simply dismiss its importance or dismiss it altogether.

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Posted By: Ben

I agree with you 100%.

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Posted By: julie

As for the Viagra ads, they're both shocking--and gutsy!

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Posted By: .

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Posted By: Cy

Jay,

I have always thought that he was one of the top three first basemen. I just looked up his stats. Forget homeruns, averages, or even gold gloves. He knocked in 100 or more runs 9 of the last 10 years, with two of those years above 140! In that same basic span of years he scored 90 or more runs (I counted one year at 89 for a 90 run season-close enough for gov't work) 10 of the last 12 years! These are terrific stats. Runs win games.

In his last 12 years, Palmeiro has knocked in 1327 runs, scored 1192 runs, then subtract the 445 home runs that he hit during these twelve years sowe don't count them twice and he has accounted for 2074 runs! That's nearly 173 runs a year. Which firstbasemen has done better than that?

I vote him in!

Cy

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Posted By: runscott

Palmeiro should get in easily - he seems to be making a real effort to satisfy everyone's requirements.

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Posted By: Albie O'Hanian

hankron-While your point is indeed valid - people like to focus on objective measures. Subjective issues are tougher to deal with. How does a fan really know who is or what makes a great leader in the clubhouse? We can speculate but unless you are in the clubhouse on a daily basis it is difficult to say.
Defense is the same way - ask any fan about what they think of the defense of Nomar Garciappara or Derek Jeter and you are going to have a very strong argument for both sides.
On the Palmiero issue it is nice that he was a decent defensive firstbaseman and that should be a plus in his favour given that he already has outstanding offensive numbers but there is not one firstbaseman in the Hall who is in there in part because of their defense.

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Posted By: Nick

Jay,
I gotta go against ya on this one. Give the guy his due.

I have chosen 5 of the top first baseman who have played within the span of his carrer. You will see his numbers are better than his competition in most cases, certainly in the top 5.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats_historical/mlb_historical_player_stats.jsp?section1=null&sortByStat=HR&statType=1&timeFrame=3&timeSubFrame=0&baseballScope=mlb&prevPage1=1&readBoxes=true&sitSplit=&venueID=&teamPosCode=3&HS=true&HS=true&compare.y=2&HS=true&compare.x=&box1=XXXX118743XXXX&box2=XXXX120191XXXX&box3=XXXX118730XXXX&box4=XXXX114526XXXX&box5=XXXX124326XXXX&statSet1=1


The stat the sticks out the most for me is the games played. In the game of baseball, showing up and playing is what leaders do.

He has without a doubt been one of the best to play his position in the last 15 years. Although McGwire or Bagwell would be a good arguement.

If he played in New York or another major market through out his carrer, he would garner more attention. He would certainly be on Sports Center more often.

Nick

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Posted By: brian parker

I had Carmen Fanzone as a substitute teacher in chorus class back in the late 70's (I was a musically ungifted baritone). I think he even brought his 1975 Topps card in as proof of his being a major leaguer at one time. I guess we all will occasionally brush against greatness at one point in our lives.

Brian