PSA OR SGC?????

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Posted By: Jeff Kennedy

Hello All,

Just wanted some expert opinion on the grading company issue. I have acquired a pretty nice collection of PSA graded cards but after speaking with other collectors (via chat) I have discovered that their is a deep appreciation for SGC graded cards. I myself like the SGC graded cards with the deep black borders surrounding the cards. When I started my collection, I was under the impression that PSA was the top of the line and that cards graded by PSA would sell for premiums in the future. Any thoughts on this topic are greatly appreciated. Although I do have a nice collection started with the PSA grades, it is still early in my T206 quest to convert over if need be. Thanks for your input on this matter.

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Posted By: Robert

Hi Jeff one thing you should know and I think everybody here will agree with me on this is that if you send your cards to SGC you WILL get lower grades. That you can be sure of. SGC is really tough on old cards and in a way that is good. Why would you want to spend money on a high grade PSA when in fact the card probably is not as high as PSA grade it at. Like a lot of people here say but the card and not the holder. I have SGC cards that are vgex to ex and if I would send them to PSA I could get at least a 7. But as time goes on more people will realize that SGC is the better grader and the prices of slabed PSA cards will come way down. Just my opinion. Rob {Bigb13}

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Posted By: quan

I'm the new guy around here (and in the hobby) but I've been more disappointed with SGC cards than PSA concerning overgrading. Maybe that's just my luck but whenever possible I do try to buy SGC over PSA because for now they are more of a bargain. In the end support the company you like and collect what you love and it shouldn't matter.

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Posted By: Wesley

For purposes of having a more uniform collection, I also considerred converting many of my PSA cards to SGC cards, and I have noticed the exact problem that Robert has pointed out. Cards sent to SGC under their "crossover" deal have not worked out favorably for me. If I do not write a minimum grade for cards, SGC usually lowers the grades. (In my opinion, this is suicide if I ever plan to resell cards, because the values of the higher number, regardless of SGC or PSA, almost invariably gets more money.) If I do write a minimum grade on my submission form, SGC sends my PSA grades back in the PSA holder because SGC's minimum standard for that grade is not met.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I personally send all my cards to be graded to SGC. i have been happy with the results. You always get some you fell are undergraded and some that receive better grades than expected. They have been too many questions to the quality of grading by PSA brought up by this board that have gone unanswered.

I also like the look of the cards in the holders. At the current time I am able to buy SGC cards cheaper than some raw cards of the same condition.

I believe in the long run that SGC cards will be in a better position that PSA, because of the turn over of graders and there past history of dealer network preferential treatment. In the vintage card grading for SGC only Derek grades them. i like this continuity and I believe the market will eventually pick up on this fact. Plus there customer service is great.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

didsappointments with PSA graded cards, that I'm inclined to say nothing coming out of a PSA holder would surprise me. So It shouldn't have surprised me when I won PSA 5 and SGC 60 common T202s, and the PSA 5 was a much nicer card. Smooth, well-cut, no "card ick,"--like i said, nothing coming out of aPSA holder would surprise me. They're inconsistant.

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Posted By: leon

ALWAYS BUT ALWAYS buy the card and NOT the holder, regardless of who's slab it's in....in the long run I do think that SGC pricing/value will hold up better AND they do grade harder, at least on older cards, and are more consistent than anyone else....again, and it can not be over emphasized, ALWAYS BUY THE CARD and don't look at the holder so much....regards all..

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Posted By: Wesley

I love SGC....the black holder, the service, the consistency. That said, how can everyone be so confident that the value of SGC cards will hold better over time? That certainly is not the case at present. Whenever you have two cards of same grade and same quality go head to head, the SGC card usually ends up with the smaller price. Just look at the end prices on ebay....you will see this applies to pre-war, post-war, etc. In the long run, who knows? But at this time, if the intention of grading is for resale, PSA may be the way to go.

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Posted By: MW

Wes,

I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but sales for SGC-graded cards, particularly vintage issues, are continually gaining strength. In fact, for nearly every 19th century issue, most E-card issues and many T-card series, SGC graded examples outsell their PSA counterparts. Of course, that assumes that PSA can even get the right card in the proper holder and satisfactorily identify the card they are grading. That's consistently been a problem with PSA over the past year -- PSA has clearly been unable to replace its two top graders who left the company just over a year ago. The question I have is how can a company determine whether a card should even belong in a holder if they don't know what it is? To me, this is pretty elementary.

The examples of strong SGC prices (greater than either PSA sales or the SMR values) are many. Here is what I've documented:

http://www.bmwcards.com/Hobbynews3.htm

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Posted By: MW

is purchasing PSA graded cards, especially those valued in excess of $1,000 and getting something that is altered or trimmed.

A recent example with the "new" PSA label:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31721&item=1986975833

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Posted By: Robert

I think 12 Grand is a bit much to pay for a trimmed card. Rob

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Posted By: MW

...it's a T206 Wagner

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Posted By: jay behrens

lmao!!!

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Posted By: Albie O'Hanian

Jeff-Collect what you like. Clearly, in this room people prefer SGC and they back up their preference with sound reasons. However, I am not so certain the rest of the collecting world feels the same way. Other than BMW how many major dealers carry and prefer to sell SGC cards over PSA? How many major auction houses prefer SGC?
BTW-Impressive list of sell prices you have there MW. Are they all sell prices-or are they asking prices?

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Posted By: MW

<< Other than BMW how many major dealers carry and prefer to sell SGC cards over PSA? How many major auction houses prefer SGC? >>

Albie, I'm not sure what your point is. If one took a look on eBay at the pre-1930 Graded Baseball Singles category, might they not conclude that AAA and NASA are the hottest companies in the hobby? I remember this argument on the old chatboard. Just because one company has a greater marketshare or more exposure does not mean that it offers a better product.


<< BTW-Impressive list of sell prices you have there MW. Are they all sell prices-or are they asking prices? >>

They are all sales prices. Also, many are recorded from direct eBay auction sales. If you take a close look at sales of vintage PSA-graded cards during the last year you will find that many PSA 7s, 8s and 9s are only selling for a fraction (75% or less) of the catalog price (SMR). And this is even AFTER many of the prices were adjusted downward by their so-called pricing experts. During the same time period, SGC prices have increased.

Albie, if you are really interested in collecting and promoting PSA cards, I think that's great. I'm sure you could have asked these same questions on the Collector's Universe forum and all of your friends would have been agreeing with you and patting you on the back. On the network54 forum, however, we are more grounded in reality.

BTW, thank you for the 1956 Topps football set at the November Toronto Expo.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

As long as I have been watching this board Mike has came up with valid points as to why PSA has problems and have yet to hear from anyone to back up PSA or explain why these things happen. The most disturbing thing about PSA to me is there dealer network preferential treatment on grading, which by NO stretch of the imagination is true grading, just putting money into the hands of the people in the dealer network and the people getting hurt are the collectors that by these overgraded cards. I personally can not support a company like this.
If the PSA thing is so good why aren't there people out there defending them? I know the majority of the posters prefer SGC, but there has to be more PSA supporters. Other than the fact that they seem to sell for higher prices, why use there services or buy there cards?

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Posted By: B C Daniels

or one on a sheet??

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Posted By: MW

Lee --

You bring up a very important point. Many of the members of this vintage forum collect for the enjoyment of it. They are not as concerned with "resale" value as many PSA collectors. Absent the argument that "PSA sells for the most" (which I don't even think is true), what argument is there to defend PSA? Do they grade more accurately? Do they have more attractive or better fitting holders? Have they historically offered better service? Are PSA's grades consistent from one week to the next? Do they have a good working knowledge of vintage baseball cards? Are they impartial to every submitter?

Like you, I would like to see a PSA supporter answer those questions that have the MOST relevance to this vintage forum.

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Posted By: Pat-T206Monsta

I have always been curious why there has been the comparison of grade degrees (e.i. SGC X = PSA X) between the two companies in the hobby circles. More specifically, you very often see the comments either in the title of a card on ebay or in the body of the writeup (e.g. SGC 7 = PSA 6) the SGC will have its dual-equivalent grade (e.g 7.5, 7) and then there will be a comment about ("this = a PSA 6"). I'm sure I've seen this 100 times. I don't understand why it is done and seems to be contrary to my and others experiences on this board (as far as SGC grades being slightly lower than PSAs)? I wonder if the "average" collector views SGC as an "easier" grader when in reality they are more thorough and tougher. Any thoughts? PSA still (to the masses) semms to carry its image as the "Card grading 800 lb. gorilla" that it established years ago. But SGC is obviously bulking up to compete for their market position (especially in vintage cards).

Pat

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Posted By: Jeff McKee

Hi Jeff,
I have both PSA and SGC graded cards.All of the PSA graded cards I bought on ebay.Most of the SGC graded cards I have,I sent to be graded by SGC.My reasons for sending my cards to SGC at first was that I liked the holders better,also they have better prices for the turnaround time.I also like there web site more as it offers you more options without buying anything.But after comparing both of the companys grades on the same cards I would say that SGC is the tougher and more consistent company.In closing if I were to have my cards graded that is where (SGC)I would send mine,but this is only my opinion.
Jeff

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Posted By: Robert

I think this is wrong(e.g. SGC 7 = PSA 6). I think it is the other way around. (SGC6 = PSA 7 or 8)Depending who sent in the card. That would be more like it. Rob

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Posted By: T206Monsta

Robert,

Here is one of Brian's cards as an example of my point.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31718&item=1987274904

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I think That the equivilant is inteneded to educate the people that are familiar with the 1-10 system to have a quick reference. We tried that in this country with the speed limit signs from mph to kmph. I think the big failure there was they continued to list mph first and kmph in smaller numbers below that. We just need to make sure we refer to SGC numbers first and 1-10 second this might help.

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Posted By: Robert

I see that it is graded a Sgc60 which would be a PSA 5. But what I mean is if that same card went to PSA it would have come back at least a 6 if not a 7 with out question. So if you have two of the same grade cards one in a SGC holder graded a 60 and one in a PSA holder graded a 5 I bet you 9 out of 10 times the SGC card is the better card. Rob

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Posted By: T206Monsta

Still, if one says an SGC 60 is a PSA 5, my point is an average buyer (not the most informed on the two co.s) would say SGC is a lighter grader? I have see this from buyers. Somem, (I repeat some) buyers have mentioned in e-mails directly and indirectly "that PSA is better". Again, my point is that this comment (SGC 60 = PSA 5) can give this type of impression. Not to you and me, but to others.

Why say SGC 60 is a PSA 5 if you think its a PSA 7 as you stated? Why not say nicely "this SGC 60 is really a PSA 7 because PSA sucks and they overgrade they're cards."

I think we're in agreement that SGC would accomplish Jeff's goal. Better physical presentation (nicer holders) and "handled" by more knowleadgeble people, etc. Again as MW said, assuming the goal of Jeff is Not to appeal to the masses (the others mentioned above) and sell but to hold and enjoy.

Regards.

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Posted By: Albie O'Hanian

MW-My point was that most major dealers and auction houses sell PSA cards. My guess is that this fact is because they are more liquid. That is my opinion. I did not say that PSA is more accurate or consistent, merely that PSA is preferred by dealers and auction houses. I do not see a reason to slam that point.
Yes, thank you for buying the 1956 Topps set (although it was somebody I work with who sold BMW that set-we usually flip a coin for the task of who is going to go around on Sunday and try and peddle some extra stuff-he lost ) do not forget I have sold you a C57 Benedict, some Ice Kings and some Canadian Chewing Gum cards. If you are nice to me, I might offer you some high grade 1937 OPC batter-ups and some high grade V304D's as well in the future.
Finally, a couple of questions in your notes you write - "Now, there's no longer any guesswork as to whether that 1952 Topps PSA 7 Mickey Mantle is really the borderline "8" as an Internet seller might claim. If it is, SGC grades it a 7.5 (86). If not, it's just a 7 -- simple, meaningful, and precise with a greater emphasis placed on offering the consumer a better value rather than a better "snow job" by a seller who probably sees every card he owns as a super-high-end, unbelievable example."
Yet, you have a Bobby Orr SGC 84 in which you state- "Conservatively graded NM 84 by SGC. In our opinion, this stunning card is extremely close to an SGC 88!" -if it was that close to an 88 should it not be an SGC 86?
and my last question -Does Dick Towle do restoration work? I was under the impression (from years ago mind you) that he was only capable of removing things from cards-can he also improve centering and build up corners?

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Posted By: Anonymous

A couple of thoughts. If someone had a card that just made a grade, eBay is the perfect place to dump that card, weither it is PSA or SGC. If you have bought all of your SGC cards on eBay, then compare them to the PSA cards that you bought on eBay.
SCG is very forgiving for centering, example http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16269&item=1986746467

I believe that PSA would have given this card an oc qualifier, thus this card is of more value in a SGC slab.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

...

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Posted By: aconte

1) I could easily see Psa grade this card a six without
a qualifier.

2) This is in an old style Sgc holder so who knows
what it might grade now

3) Who are you sir?

aconte

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Posted By: jay behrens

The big misconception here is that SGC's 1-10 scale is the same as PSA's. It's not even close. SGC started doing it so that people familiar with PSA would ahve something to relate to, but I gaurentee you, as others have mentioned, a card that gets 5 on the SGC scale will come back with a 6 or better from PSA.

Short term, yes, PSA sells better and has better market share than SGC, but if they continue as they are, this will not be the case in the long term, especially for vintage cards. It was pointed out that the major auction houses carry mostly PSA cards. I am sure this more a function of the fact that there are more PSA cards out and not out of preference for one company or another. I don't think auction houses really care what slab it is in, as long as it is not PRO, AAA, NASA or some other disreputable service.

Jay

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Posted By: jay behrens

As mentioned by someone else, that is an older holder. If that card were resubmitted, it would get hammered for centering. It states right in the grading guide SGC40-...90/10 centering. So that card would get no better than a 40 if resubmitted. I have a great looking e93 Griffith that got a 40 grade because of its 90/10 centering.

We can always find exceptions, but try and show us repeated examples where SGC cards this far off center got a grade this nice.

Jay

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Posted By: T206Monsta

First, the question I posed and the example I gave continue to be danced around and not addressed.

Secondly, I never mentioned resubmitting cards already graded by PSA of SGC to get higher and or different grades.

Finally, my statement WAS, "people seeing (over and over again) the statement that a 60 SGC = a PSA 5 would lead one (a common collector, this is a key point here) that SGC is an easier grader."

Why are reponses continuing to saying\gaurantee that the same card if submitted to PSA would yield a 7. That is NOT what the question was and does not address the point that SGC 60 and PSA 5 are IN THE SAME SENTENCE therefore MISLEADING a common collector (A key point here not a vintage web-site reader). There is NO mention of the ficticious PSA 7 grade that is mentioned unpon re-submittle.

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Posted By: runscott

If I sent a card to PSA and it was judged to be an 8, then I broke it out of the slab and sent it back 9 separate times, how many of those times would it come back as an 8? (in your opinion).

Maybe someday they'll create a machine that you can simply stick a card in, it will be electronically evaluated, and an indisputable grade will be assigned.

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Posted By: marty

"We can always find exceptions, but try and show us repeated examples where SGC cards this far off center got a grade this nice." Jay
See below

"2) This is in an old style Sgc holder so who knows
what it might grade now" Aconte
Ask MW. I believe that he feels that it does not matter when SGC graded a card, they are consistent. MW, sorry if I am misstating you.

"Are PSA's grades consistent from one week to the next?" MW
I believe that the eBay auctions below are consistent.


This is not a tough game. This has been my concern with SGC. I believe that they are consistent on allowing centering concerns in higher grades. I acknowledge that, I do not condim them for it, it is just the way that they grade.
I spent about 5 minutes on eBay and posted some auctions that I feel show cards that PSA would grade oc for the grade given. I do not play bash SGC, this is just my opnion and I do not take sides on which is right. My customers ask for PSA. If they asked for SGC, I would have SGC. IF they asked for GA, I would have GA. If I would have thought that Intel stock was a good buy going from $80.00 to $12.00, I would have bought it. I let the markets tell me what to do.
I am just a small time guy that does not fell that I have the power or desire to try to change the market or convince others what it should be.
If you disagree with me, that is heathly. This is just my observation.
Sorry for leaving my name off before.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16269&item=1988188572

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16269&item=1988322794

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1985424858

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16271&item=1987465937

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16271&item=1987616200

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16271&item=1987620272

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Posted By: jay behrens

to answer that quention, people that say SGC60 is the equivelent of a PSA 5 are misinformed or trying to convey information that would make more sense to someone not familiar with SGC. Personally, I wish they would stop saying that it is equivelent to a PSA 5 since anyone familiar with both companies knows that the card would grade higher than a 5 with PSA.

Jay

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Posted By: jay behrens

at least 2 of the cards you show as further examples are also in older slabs. Most of the others, I cannot tell becuase they do not have back scans.

Jay

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Posted By: MW

Who are you? Do you buy or sell on eBay?

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Posted By: T206Monsta

The comment is made and the layman thinks (and they do) that they are comparing apples and apples. And the one with the lower number is the result of a tougher company (so they think).

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Posted By: marty

Jay, I am under the impression that the SGC supporters feel that SGC cards are the same, within reason, regardless of when they were graded. There will always be just missed and just made grades that my be reversed. Should not this cross over to centering also? I was just answering your request to show you a pattern.

MW, my name is Marty Pritchard. I do a few shows, Fort Washington was the last, some eBay, some Yahoo and my web site. I do business as All Marty's Stuff. I hope that you are not offended by my refering to you in my last post. I do not defend PSA. I do not say that they are the best, or most consistient. I do point out to people when there is inconsistiency in their strong statements.

I do not normally post, I just try to learn. I do not try to change oppions of others, it is their opnions. I have a new customer that wanted to bid on one of my Yahoo auctions and asked me if I thought that the ungraded cards, vg, was a better by than either of the graded cards that I had on my web site. He told me that he was interested in getting back into collecting, investing, for his children's college. I told him that the best investment for his college funds is college IRA's, not cards. I told him that cards are a hobby that he may come out ahead on. He asked about graded cards, and the grades of cards. I told him to stay with PSA, SGC, GA. I gave him my view of the past market with the different grade ranges and the different grading companies. It was not my intent, but I must of talked him out of bidding on my auction also. I did ship him an order.

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Posted By: runscott

but obviously the question is a little tougher than you feel, since this debate keeps getting repeated. With your 6 examples you have made a good point about SGC and centering. Fortunately most buyers can visually determine if a card is off-center or not, so this isn't as big of an issue as grading trimmed cards.

I don't have a problem buying PSA-graded cards, and don't think twice as long as they are PSA 6 or lower. But when I buy PSA 7-8 cards I just have to not look too closely at the edges - afraid of what I might (not) find. Fortunately I stick mainly to pre-wwi baseball, and SGC is doing great in that area, but I also like Bowman football and those still seem to be mainly PSA territory.

There are realitities to the market that we would be foolish to ignore, but I disagree with you in that I feel we can definitely change trends. We do this as customers by "voting" when we purchase slabbed cards or choose a grading company for submissions. We also do it as board members by educating others on the qualities of the various grading companies. Hopefully you will continue to participate in this process with your observations.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Marty, I just realizd the problem with your examples and something that a lot of people do not know about SGC. Vintage cards pass through a different set of graders than do cards from the modern era (post ww2). So far, all the cards you have shown to have been given high grades regardless of centering are all cards from the modern era and graded by other people than Derek Grady and the other graders in the vintage area.

This is a big part of the claim for consistancy for SGC, at least in the vintage cards, becuase every card that goes to SGC for grading passes thru Derek Grady's hands before finally being slabbed. I don't know if this sort of situation is true on the modern card side.

Jay

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Posted By: Albie O'Hanian

runscott-Probably a 7 or lower from all of the excess handling.
Really I think it would depend on the card and the individual grader. Grading is very subjective and there are a number of factors going into the grade of the card that are dependent strictly on that grader. I would like to believe that the card would come back with the same grade all 9 times - but I realize the reality of the situation and that it is very unlikely. I have seen plenty of examples of inconsistencies with PSA grading and re-submissions getting different grades.

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Posted By: marty

Runscott, I stated that I do not have the power to change the market, not the collecting world. If the market changes, I am there. I do not care.

Jay, I have reread your request for additional examples. I did not see a request for Derek Grady's cards only. How can you tell that Mr. Grady did not grade any of these cards. Is there a chance that any of these were graded by him? I do not know how to tell, please enlighten. Is there a chance that the head grader gave different instructions to Mr. Grady than he did to the other graders? How does that stand to the consistency statement?

I do not want to spend the time, nor care to, to go back and see who stated that SGC is the strictest. Maybe they could have two different holders, one one for the cards that they are consistent with, and one that they do not care. Maybe the cards should state who graded them. I bought a shirt that had the name of the inspector in the pocket.

The most discouraging feature in this board is how personal some take comments, and the effort that is taken to prove a point. A fun part is to see how easy it is to start a fight. I observe. If I had even 10% of my customers requesting SGC, I would carry some of their product. I do not deal in the era that many of you do. I had three Tango Egg cards of the same player, one SGC 84, and two PSA 5. They looked identical. The PSA cards were 5 for centering in my mind. They sold on eBay for about the same money.

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Posted By: runscott

thanks for enlightening us.

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Posted By: Brian H

Apart from the escapades of the folks at AAA and NASA debating the grading companies is the most common recurrent topic on this board.
From these debates and my own observations I have come to the following conclusions:
1. The vocal majority (I don't know about the lurkers) is generally pro-SGC. But that must be qualified -- they are pro-SGC primarily with respect to Vintage (pre WWII and earlier) and as collectors more than investors. One of the primary reasons is that all of these cards are reviewed by Derek Grady. Derek Grady has been SGC primary vintage grader for some time (although not the whole time SGC was in operations). During that time PSA has apparently employed at least 3 different graders (hence less consistency many believe.)
PSA also has made more clear mistakes than SGC on Vintage cards. To some extent this results from the fact that they have graded many more cards. However, I think that they have also been rather careless compared to SGC.
2. #1 is not the same as saying that vintage SGC cards are necessarily worth more than PSA cards. The truth is that there are collectors (primarily PSA set builders) who prefer and only bid on PSA cards. Some of these folks put big dollars into PSA cards. On the whole I would say that PSA cards are still a bit ahead on price in the Vintage are -- but that is a very general conclusion and I think theat the gap is shrinking.
3. PSA is far more dominant in the 1948-1980 market and I think that PSA graded cards of this era are prefered by the market to those graded by its competitors. Also this part of the market is less comfortable with SGC's grading scale which incorporates centering into the overall grade rather than using qualifiers (OC etc.) (I also think that PSA is more strict on the centering of the backs of cards).
4. The market for cards since 1980 generally prices similarly graded cards by Beckett above both PSA and SGC. (SGC and GAI seem to trail PSA here).

Most Importantly as Leon said: "Buy the cards not the holders." If you decide to sell you can always have the card regraded if you think the holder will determine your profit.

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Posted By: Albie O'Hanian

Brian H-I would agree with your statements. Well said.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Marty, Derek Grady is the head grader for SGC. Others that know him personally can tell what his full duties are beyond checking every vintage card that passes thru SGC.

You said this game of finding grading consistancies in regards to centering was easy. Now that you have a better understanding of most people's perspective in regards to SGC here on the board, finding those grading inconsistancies in regard to centering aren't so easy now, are they?

You also mention that you cannot influence markets, but that is where you are mistaken. If you are a dealer, then you can and do influence markets by what you can carry and, if bother to take the time, by educating your customers. And I don't know about you, but when I had a business, I took pride in what I sold, and didn't meerly sell things jsut because they wanted it. If I felt there was a better, comperable or similar product, then I would educate them about and offer taht product too.

Jay

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Posted By: MW

<< I do not defend PSA. I do not say that they are the best, or most consistient. I do point out to people when there is inconsistiency in their strong statements. >>


Care to rephrase, Marty? The name of your website is martyspsagradedcards.com. Content: 99% PSA graded cards.

Also, I was wondering if you could answer a few questions about some of PSA graded cards you have for sale on your website. In particular:

(1) Is this 1915 Cracker Jack stained (ST) in the lower left corner or is it just the scan?



I tend to think it DOES have a stain because this one does too:



As does this one:



(2) How do you feel (OC) about the centering on this PSA 8 you have for sale? Gosh! This card lists for $12 and you're asking $50? Are you selling the card here, Marty, or the "8" on the PSA holder?



(3) Do you think the stain (ST), rounded corners or poor centering (OC) makes this card suspect?



(4) Which bothers you more -- the staining (ST) or the centering?



(5) Does this card normally not have a border on the left side, Marty?



(6) See anything wrong with this one?



(7) Which do you prefer? A card that is OC top-to-bottom or OC left-to-right? Come on, Marty, $125 for this card? It only lists for $30 and was double printed in the set. What are we buying here? The card or the holder?



(8) Paper loss on the surface? Severely rounded corners? VG???????




No offense, Marty, but nearly every third or fourth card I was viewing on your PSA site was overgraded (http://www.martyspsagradedcards.com/new.htm). And I'm not quite sure what your policy is on the "buy the card, not the holder" issue, but it certainly seems that you are trying to sell the holder, not the card.

Finally, Jay is absolutely correct. You are pointing out examples of modern SGC graded cards. That's 90% of what you buy and sell but that's not what the majority of people here collect. Again, I think it's great that you are in love with PSA and you trust their accurate grades (why else would you be selling so many PSA cards?), but your interests would probably be better served on the Collectors Universe forum. Hobbyists on this forum mostly collect vintage cards and can tell the difference between a company that often grades randomly (AAA, NASA, PSA) and one that is knowledgeable and consistent (SGC).

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Posted By: MW

Albie,

Think about this for a moment. Why would you be selling so many cards to us if you could just get them PSA graded and sell them for more than what we'll be getting for them in SGC holders? Kind of makes you wonder about which company REALLY inspires more confidence in collectors, doesn't it?


<< Yet, you have a Bobby Orr SGC 84 in which you state- "Conservatively graded NM 84 by SGC. In our opinion, this stunning card is extremely close to an SGC 88!" -if it was that close to an 88 should it not be an SGC 86? >>

Many qualities of the card were similar to that of a NM/MT card -- color, clarity, borders, etc. The fact that the corners had a touch too much wear made it an SGC 84. Do you mean to tell me that a Near Mint card can't have NM-MT qualities? I sure think it can.


<< and my last question -Does Dick Towle do restoration work? I was under the impression (from years ago mind you) that he was only capable of removing things from cards-can he also improve centering and build up corners? >>

If you have a specific question for Dick Towle, I suggest that you give him a call. Also, I think some of his advertisements might provide some clues. You might want to check some old SCD's and issues of the Beckett Vintage magazine.

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Posted By: marty

Mike, you are big on facts. I did not say that I trust the grades or did not trust the SGC grades. I said that my customers want PSA cards. I would have to assume that your customers want SGC cards rather than PSA. That also is great. I will disagree with you that AAA and NASA grade randomly, I think that they are consistent, not correct, but consistent. One reason that I did post was to start a one way arguement. I do not plan on posting again. You may attack me all that you like, you will get no response.
Mike,I do want to thank you for listing my web site. I normally will only do so when asked. I do not want to force myself on others.