This no longer a joke

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Posted By: David 

The 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle has now been put up for auction again with a minimum bid of $22,500 and and a BIN of $22,500, which cannot be explained away as 'test.' This is potentially serious stuff, I mean felony.

I expect this card to be removed within the next 24 hours, or I am contacting the FBI and eBay. I have on record Koos' own comments that the card is altered.

And you can bet that any following derogitory posts, threats or retaliatory actions will be forewarded to the FBI.

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

Yes, it's hard to view that as anything other than an attempt to sell the card.

Is Dr. Koos' description of the card's alteration online?

bruce

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Posted By: Charles Montoya

Is it already gone?
LC

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...see if you can follow this. At one time I actually was inclined to BELIEVE the unsubstantiated rumours about the card being "restored". Why? Because EVERYONE on the Vintage Board and on this Board said so. Yes..being a rank amateur at collecting, I blindly accepted the rumours. Not so anymore. Within the past month, I've studied this card from every conceivable angle and in my estimation, the card is CLEAN..as well as being PROFESSIONALLY GRADED by a VALID GRADING SERVICE, like it or not David. I bought the card already slabbed by Pro, believed in the card's validity enough to fork over $12,500 for it, my belief was shaken by all the malcontents with a massive beef with Pro and E-net, and now, after intensive scrutiny, once again believe the card to be unaltered. Simple as that. Like ANY OTHER GRADED CARD, it's the seller's right to auction it as a final sale. The card IS described PERFECTLY. That is what I see. A beautiful Mantle card that looks totally unaltered, professionally graded by Pro. I have NEVER seen a law that prohibits the sale of Pro-graded cards. Have you? Have you examined the MM? Do you know what was done to it? Obviously, Bill Mastro, probably the foremost dealer in the world, didn't state in HIS auction of the card before slabbing exactly what was done/altered (and as if no auctioneer, regardless of his impeccable reputation ever made a MISTAKE in offering something that was described as genuine but was later found out to be spurious). THIS is what you base your tireless allegations on. That if it's Pro slabbed, it's NG. I beg to differ with you. FULL disclosure on the card's condition and residence inside a Pro holder HAS been made. "AS IS" has been stated, just as the thousands of cards that are auctioned that are in PSA holders (and because a card is in a PSA holder, does it mean that it's positively unaltered?). Obviously, you seek to block the sale of this card because you hate PRO and hate me. It's plain as day. I didn't buy the card from Mastronet, I bought it slabbed! A professionally graded card. Deal with it. Just as I dealt for two+ years with thinking that the card was altered because everybody says so, even though NONE OF YOU HAVE SUBJECTED THE CARD TO EXAMINATION. Can't deal with the fact that you can't bid and retract, criminally tampering with a valid National Mail Auction? Too bad! I've come full circle since the E90-1 Jax episode, a card that was NEVER in a Mastro auction that everyone had the SAME PROBLEM WITH. THAT'S the plain and simple truth about it. It's not just the MM. It's ANY Pro card I auction that I paid good money for and is my right to sell AS BOUGHT. After the JAX, you malcontents have made me realize that if you have a problem with the JAX as well, enough so to criminally tamper with it, there's not a damn thing wrong with that MM besides your problem with Pro, that you're too damned chicken-S**T to take up with Moser in person because of your fear of him! And what's the reason...."it's too good a card to be graded by Pro so it must be NG". There's a good scientific reason! This is like the 17th century. Like the scientific evaluation of identifying a witch by use of a witche's prick! You point a sharp object into the witch and if it leaves a mark, they're guilty! If it doesn't, they're protected by the devil. No laws, no rules on Ebay prohibit the sale of GRADED CARDS. PSA, SGC, BGS, OR Pro. I eagerly await their inquiry on my offering a professionally graded card. This is HARRASSMENT. A clear cut case of it and I will not hesitate at this point to avail myself of all means possible for legal recompensation from you.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

..I don't recall anyone stating what the problem with the card is other than my buying it from E-Net as a result of an EBAY AUCTION, and it residing in a PRO holder. Kindly refresh my memory.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

who you CAN reach by phone, even on Sunday!!!! NO problem with the auction whatsoever. He's aware of your "affinity" for Pro-graded cards. Send your complaints there! I've already registered mine on the Jax retractions and INVESTIGATIONS is looking into it, even as we speak. Criminal mischeif in deliberate tampering with an auction (the JAX), which my rep DID positively feel was tampering beyond a shadow of a doubt is a REAL Crime.Time to set examples for all vigilantes that take the law into their own hands. Three retractions against an unmet reserve (unnecessary), by three bidders who didn't notice the PRO holder? You could have done better than that. Why didn't you just draw them a roadmap right to your premeditated intentions and actions.

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Posted By: brian parker

Link #1

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=153652&messageid=1022126718&lp=1024519713

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Posted By: brian parker

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=153652&messageid=1022126718&lp=1024519713

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Posted By: brian parker

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=153652&messageid=1024508143&lp=1025188709

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Posted By: David

This IS my last post on this subject. I just hope that Dr. Koos would treat any potential buyer the way he wishes he had been treated in the first place.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=153652&messageid=1028408764&lp=1028469502

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

I think that your earlier comments are right on the money. I would never assume that any vintage PRO card was un-altered, and I would agree that it is better to have this kind of thing graded by a major grader. I don't agree with much of what you say in this new post.

What we see in the card business is people paying substantial premiums for PSA-graded material, and substantial discounts for PRO-graded material.

When a seller sells both in quantity, it is obvious that he knows that PRO-graded material is discounted, and it is natural to conclude that he would be getting the PSA premium if he could do so. Since he is not, it must be because he can't. And if he can't, it is proper to ask why he can't. The only sensible reasons are that the cards are over-graded or have been messed around with.

You are asking most of PSA-8 SMR for this card. I doubt that you'll get it, because most people believe what I wrote in my previous two paragraphs.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1850220137

There is the link to the auction, in case anyone would like to look.

bruce

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Posted By: Mike Williams

Question 1 - If you're now feeling the Mantle is "ok" as it's been studied from every angle, why are you selling it ("none of your business" is acceptable)?

Question 2 - If the card was purchased from you, then sent to SGC or PSA and they both deemed it altered, would you offer a refund?

Question 3 - Do you really, really feel ok with selling this card knowing the history (forget the recent board crap, I mean with it being deemed altered by Mastro, the showing up in a PRO Nm/Mt holder, then you winning it and telling the board how you got ripped off with leagl action pending)?

I guess I'm just a bit confused, there are a slew of easy "outs" here, yet you're choosing the hardest road. Some idle ramblings on damn hot Sunday....

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Posted By: Julian

"Julian, Thank you for your interest! I won this card on Ebay, approx. 2.5
years ago, just as you see it. I have no idea why Pro was chosen to slab the
card and don't know whether or not the card was ever graded by any of the
'Big 4' grading services. I have made no attempt to submit the card, since my
ownership, to any alternate grading service. The card sizes EXACT catalog
specifications, top to bottom, and is approx. 1/32 to 1/64th of an inch
WIDER, left to right (Look at how it fills the holder), than catalog specs,
and was measured to the OUTSIDE of the ruler's marking lines, just to be on
the safe side. This measurement was ascertained across not just ONE line of
width or height, but across many random points on the card. The portraiture,
the area boundaried by the black frame lines is precisely identical when
compared to a G/VG "control" MM, so stretching and trimming is NOT a
possibility. I cannot notice ANY other forms of alteration as well. Thank
you. -Richard "

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

I don't know if you are asking the question of me or the base poster. If you are asking me, I have no idea what, if anything, was done to that card.

bruce

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

you-know-what this time.

I don't know why anyone would have a problem with this current posting of David's, especially after the links that Brian Parker has now shown us, which David commented about and recalled when he created this thread.

On this very board...twice in one thread and once in another thread, Koos himself states that he bought this Mantle for $12,500 and the Jackson for $8,900 and then states these exact words: "That's $21,400 worth of wall-paper that I never tried foisting off or bouncing back to anyone else in the hobby."

He then goes on after that to say everything about PRO-Grading that everyone else here says, and states these very words: "It would be safe to say that EVERY Pro-graded card, at least those of pre-1960 vintage, can be assumed to be restored. From the scans of every Pro-graded card I've ever seen on Ebay, I can honestly say that I've never seen one Vintage card that DIDN'T look unaltered in some way. If you own a Pro-graded card, get it graded by SGC, PSA, or BGS for the straight scoop. You're only in denial if you don't regardless of whether it's a $100 or $12,500 card."

Then, Koos yaks about ethics. Seeing his current auction, Koos' ethics become the joke of the century.

Well, now...I wonder how good shoes really taste when one's foot is profoundly stuck in one's mouth...

Nevertheless, to make a criminal complaint/charge, the primary element that one must show is EITHER knowledge or intent. Both are evident here...he clearly states his knowledge that these are worthless cards. Then, his intent is shown in placing the Mantle up for auction at this outrageous auction he has listed. One doesn't need to actually be successful at the crime, one must only take significant steps toward commission of the crime. That has been done. The FBI wouldn't need to wait for an unsuspecting victim. I'd think there would be enough right here to press criminal fraud charges for clearly attempting to perpetrate fraud. With this Board and eBay both clearly in the public domain, this would be pretty easy to charge and prosecute, and I would think the numbers are significant enough to warrant a felony arrest and investigation.

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

I think it's possible that nobody has anything here. Dr. Koos derides the cards, but he can claim that's because someone told him that all PRO cards are crap.

As an aside, why aren't people accusing the guy who sold this card to Dr. Koos of being Satan? The guy has over a dozen PRO-graded cards up right now, whey isn't there a 100-post thread complaining about this?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1850056390

Why aren't people reporting that auction to the FBI, for example?

bruce

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Posted By: jay berhens

the only problem with measuring a card through a piece of plastic, plexiglass, glass or whatever, is that you will get some sort of refraction and distortion making exact measurements impossible. Any physicist will tell you this.

Jay

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

And you're right. I paid $22K+ for these two Pro cards that I was lead to believe by members of this VERY BOARD were FAKE! That's a matter of public record as they were both essentially bought as a result of Ebay Auctions. I was also led to believe that Moser, VonDole, and company were the Devil's themselves, slabbing their own cards. To their credit, they DID tell me to ignore the women of the Board. I didn't listen to them. NOW, in retrospect, I wish that I had, because I fully believe the cards to be fine as they are THIRD PARTY GRADED. In AMERICA, If I wish to sell a graded card, as bought, I can! At least according to EBAY, who will stand behind me on this as I've been assured and will be expecting a renegging winner to make an example out of. I can buy a PSA graded card and resell it if I so choose. I can buy an SGC graded card and do likewise. AND, I can buy a Pro graded card and resell it if I choose to. The grading is OUT OF MY HANDS. It has been professionally graded and I accept the info and grade on the slab. I have described exactly what I see, to a TEE! On BOTH cards. YOU cannot dictate what company's graded slabs are allowable and NOT allowable on Ebay. Ebay is well aware of what you are doing here, make no mistake about it. These "demands" to end auctions you don't like. "You can't measure a card through a slab because the light refracts"....BULLS**T! And anyway, I don't even HAVE to measure it, anymore than if it was in another company's graded holder. It's THIRD PARTY GRADED. I don't have to describe ANYTHING if I didn't want to because the scan of the slab's grade and card within should speak for itself, anymore than I would have to describe a card in a PSA or SGC holder. My earlier beliefs were DEAD WRONG! I was caught up in your HYSTERIA over PRO cards. You want the auction ended? Either enact legislature to BAN the sale and purchase of Pro cards, or BUY Ebay and make your own VIGILANTE rules!!

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...what I see when I view the card. This man doesn't embellish to support his own warped views (not to imply HIS views are warped). NOW, go look at the card's scan and find fault with this description, which I don't HAVE to even give beyond saying, as in so many PSA or SGC auctions, just the basic, "Nice card, PSA 8, no returns on graded material". I've SEEN descriptions like this, haven't you? My scan is extremely LARGE, extremely ACCURATE and true to detail, and with extreme clarity. The card has been professionally graded! Furthermore..I've BEEN ASKED in emails if I will guarantee this card crossing over successfully to a PSA, to which I answered, "I CANNOT GUARANTEE THAT THIS CARD WILL CROSSOVER TO PSA anymore than I can guarantee that a PSA graded card will crossover successfully to SGC. I've been reading for years on the two boards about y'all complaining that you cracked open a PSA 6, sent it to SGC, and they WOULDN'T GRADE IT and numerous other examples of this sort, PRO ASIDE!!! Haven't I?

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

..by Mastronet. IT met with the same reaction as the Mantle! Your other questions are answered below. ALWAYS good talking to someone with common sense that ISN'T a hypocrit! Some of this Vigilante mob have both sides of their sabres sharpened, so even if they HEAR an answer rife with common sense, they just flip the blade over and start cutting with the other side. Also, WHAT IF MASTRO WAS WRONG? And PRO was right to slab it. I have an email from an EAST Coast collector averring that he ALTERED SIX T-206 cards, and PSA GRADED FIVE of them!!!! Did ANY of the BIG, Prominent Auction Houses ever fumble the ball, bat, uniform, or DOYLE card!!! NO ONE is infallible. Not me, Not Mastro, not any of the posters on this board. The card is PROFESSIONALLY GRADED AS I BOUGHT IT! I have a source, EBAY stands behind my right to auction it, and my earlier, "caught up in the Boards' Pro hysteria" beliefs were erroneous. It's everyone's ANTI-JAX posts, and ANTI-KOOS posts that further convinced me that PRO is NOT the villain here. Those that seek to impose their will by vigilante tactics, ARE! Public lynchings and crucification went out of style YEARS ago boys.

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

I asked them why they used PRO. The answer I got, on March 23rd, 2001, was:

"PRO is one of the top graders even being sold in
large volume on national TV."

Have you asked them why they use PRO? What did they tell you?

bruce

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Posted By: Charles Montoya

Has anyone set in motion an investigation of Pro Grading? I have read so very much now on how dishonest this company is and I must agree with an earlier post(that I can't seem to find now)that maybe some of the negativity should be addressed to them if in fact any or all of these allegations are true.I just find it rather difficult to believe that everything they grade is poo-poo. Last week on another forum I frequent, I saw an obvious Mantle reprint that has been graded by PSA. I have seen many questionable cards that have been pointed out and discussed at great length as to how they made the grade or have been graded without qualifiers. Not once have I seen someone allege that maybe PSA may has been less than honest. I mean, if it doesn't say PSA, SGC, or dare I say Beckett, then I see grading company after grading company labled as crooks or as trimmers.

I'm sure that many a new collectors have sent perfectly good cards to some of the less popular grading companies, gotten an accurate grade and all is well. There is no question that for investment purposes, PSA seems to be the way to go. I find it difficult to believe that all of the other companies are just out to rip folks off. I'm certain that all of them would like to be #1 and I know that most of them must have quality minded people at least in the business office that know that a good reputation insures longevity.

Now I want to learn as much as I can here.I really enjoy reading some of the absolutely brilliant post on vintage cards,how some of you seem to know even the slightest differences in cards. It's amazing sometimes when I read about such suttle changes that I could never at this point even know to look for and, y'all pick them out so quickley!

I guess it's because there is so much smarts and experience here, that I can't understand how such broad statements are used when talking about some of the lesser known grading companies. I mean at least GAI made it to the nationals and may now begin to get a little bit of respect.

Is it the general consensus here that ONLY PSA and SGC have competant graders? Does that mean that no one outside of those companies is REALLY qualified to grade cards? Or is it more likely that most of these companies employee people that have spent their lives in this labor of love trying to establish themselves as the BEST?

If that PRO Mantle is altered, then I believe that PRO is responsible. Personally I think that Dr, Koos listed it just to get a rise out of everybody.

That's another thing I noticed,Koos was away from his keyboard for a short period of time over the past few days and hadn't made any post. But the chatter about him never stopped.Then when he did come back, it was worse than ever.This forum for vintage baseball cards was full of nasty vile talk that I hope no kid who was trying to learn about baseball cards ever saw.

This Mantle card is a good topic, it has created so much talk about other cards, descriptions of cards,prices of cards you know.....card talk.

Then all of these personal attacks! Talk of strong sexual content with descriptions of sexual acts and anatomy. I must say that I became quite disgusted.If everybody truly would have ignored him, I think he would have just backed off. After a few no replies to his threads and maybe all would have been well. but the same folks who wanted to ignore him just kept on until he responded. Almost like they missed him.

I feel like this guy has just strung y'all along enjoying every moment of taunting and bringing out the childlike behavior we have seen here.

And even worse is this man who claims to be a doctor behaving as he has. I truly hope that if you are a doctor that you leave your nastiness in the hall while you're supposedly dedicating your life to saving others.

I may never have your money Doc but I truly care about people and spend as much time thanking God for what little I do have rather than comparing my material possessions to those who may have less.

So sad that the life you describe is that of someone who has the need to always try to be impressive.Must be tough to deal with when the most powerful motivator in you life is the opinion that others have of you.

If you were truly happy with all that you have, then having it would be enough. The need to tell the world of your accomplishments shows that you too sir have great weakness in your character.You will never have enough to be happy. You seek happiness outside of yourself. It's glaringly evident.

In this day of such horrible disease, how sad that a physician, who sees it everyday, boast about his promiscuity.

I guess this has been quite a rant. I want to learn about Vintage baseball cards. Should I go to the Sex / braggart forums? Maybe a debate forum?

I have an idea. Why don't you sell your cards, everybody else just let him, and somebody find a new rare card for us all to look at.
LC

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

..not only mine, but the ones that I was directly responding to. MY responses were geared towards my vigilante mob's mindset in the posts that immediately preceeded them. At first, light and humorous, and then as they became MORE frustrated because they realized that they were spinning their wheels trying to win a war of words with ME, downright combative in an unpleasant manner. I shoot straight from the hip. I have no middle ground. Brutal honesty. And I respond unpleasantly to barbs, accusations, and threats. NOBODY does that to me in person, and I'll be damned if I was going to stand for these Keyboard Warriors lashing out here from the safety of their home. If you recall, my answer about how "sad my life must be, as I sit and merrily masturbate......" was, "Yes..it's a horrible life, but when I'm sad I just take a nice ride in one of my $100K+ Benzs, a trip to the gym and rocket 550lbs+ off my chest, or if I feel like female companionship, get free take out from any Upscale club I choose, free of charge, just by wearing a tank top". Let's think about this for one second: Did you ever wish that you had a prestigious position that NETTED you $500K+ per year, without EVER HAVING TO SELL 1 item? Did you ever wish you OWNED a car that made you smile every time you put it in Drive? EVERYBODY's worked out at one time or another, didn't you ever wish just once, that you could experience what it would feel like to load 5 plates on each side of the bar (495), get under it and smoke 5 or 6 reps? Ever see a woman in a 7-11, or Starbucks, or nightclub, that you WISH you could "get with"? TELL ME YOU HAVEN'T Charles and I'll call you a liar, and I don't believe you are a liar. It's called DRIVE. The desire to succeed overriding a person's natural tendencies to do tomorrow what SHOULD be done today! Now if someone in a trailerpark, netting $4800 a year in welfare wishes to tell me "HOW SORRY THEY ARE FOR ME", I'm going to tell them that they don't have to worry...AND WHY! Julie felt repugnant by my answer and added, "She would NEVER marry me". But, who the hell asked her?
I didn't come from out of nowhere, attacking people unprovokedly. I ANSWER POSTS THAT ATTACK ME, mostly on a PERSONAL level, and since THE POSTS are unpleasant, my answers are unpleasant as well. Whenever someone makes at least SOME sense, like you did with your post, I go out of my way to answer truthfully and courteously (review some of the sane questions I've been asked for an example). This PRO issue was a SMOKESCREEN, nothing else. Board members venting their wrath over ME, not so much the cards. If it was about PRO, where's the premeditated Ebay retractions on all the OTHER Pro cards listed on Ebay in the past 6 months?

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

Here are Koos' words exactly copied from an entry he made on June 17, less than 2 months ago:

"As far as I know, I still own BOTH worthless cards that I bought from this outfit. A 1952T Mantle "Pro" 8 ('Pro-graded' being a Politically correct synonym for restored)that I'm out $12,500 on PLUS a lovely E90-1 Jackson in "Pro" 7 that I shelled out $8,900 for. That's $21,400 worth of wall-paper that I never tried foisting off or bouncing back to anyone else in the hobby. You make an off-the-cuff mindless statement about morals like some contemptuous, idiotic, jack-ass, without putting your mind in gear before engaging your fingers. Would YOU sit with $21,400 tied up in two cards that you found out were GARBAGE after you paid CASH for them, for 2 years, and NEVER once try to foist them on some unsuspecting Ebayer?"

First of all, he says he found out 2 YEARS AGO that they were garbage...so it wasn't "us guys" on this board that made him think that. He became aware of it through a different venue altogether. He says he never tried foisting them on anyone for 2 YEARS. So, he knew TWO YEARS AGO that they were fake/worthless.

(Those were his own words here, folks, go back and look).

Secondly, he is now trying to FOIST them on someone. The person he bought them from may not have known, but it was up to Koos to go after that seller at that time; it is NOT sanguine for him to hold on to them for two years and THEN try to FOIST them off on someone else. Like I said, he has expressed clear KNOWLEDGE that they are fake/worthless, and he said this LESS THAN TWO MONTHS AGO.

Thirdly...what significant apocalypse has happened in the last few weeks to suddenly go from his statements about his two cards and PRO, to his position now? It's quite an "about face".

Just a few short weeks ago, on June 17, Koos states these words exactly: "It would be safe to say that EVERY Pro-graded card, at least those of pre-1960 vintage, can be assumed to be restored. From the scans of every Pro-graded card I've ever seen on Ebay, I can honestly say that I've never seen one Vintage card that DIDN'T look unaltered in some way. If you own a Pro-graded card, get it graded by SGC, PSA, or BGS for the straight scoop. You're only in denial if you don't regardless of whether it's a $100 or $12,500 card."

Those are very exact words..."...EVERY Pro-graded card, at least those of pre-1960 vintage, can be assumed to be restored." (and) "...every Pro-graded card I've ever seen on Ebay, I can honestly say that I've never seen one Vintage card that DIDN'T look unaltered in some way."

Words like VERY and NEVER are very precise. In all that time Koos NEVER saw one that wasn't unaltered. And, EVERY one can assume to be restored. Is that "us guys" on this Board telling him to say this, as he whines back to everyone in a response?

NO. It is his own words describing his own experiences and his own observations. Just like it was NOT this Board that told him his Mantle and Jackson was garbage...he found that out TWO YEARS AGO.

Then, he comes in here frequently stroking his own ego to tell us how rich he is, how he benches a quarter-ton, how he picks up whatever women he wants to, how he has a half-million dollar fleet of cars to drive to make him happy...yet, he is fixated on a mere $20K or so in "wallpaper" as he puts it. This would be pocket change for someone so wealthy and rich and awesome as he says he is...again, more of the "distraction" that a "shill" uses to take someone's eyes off of what is really going on... Apart from his unwavering morals that he told us about earlier, he will try to sell this garbage to someone. Certainly not because he needs the money, since he is so wealthy, but because he wants to sell the garbage to someone and pass that pain on to someone else.

These are all Koos's words from earlier posts, nothing else. If you think that Koos is above Board, and the Mantle is offered at a great price for the "grade", then buy it yourself as an investment. Koos own words just a few weeks ago completely defiled those cards; and his discovery that they are valueless was made long ago. Like I said, those are his own words and it had nothing to do with the people here on this board.

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

What would a PSA-8 example of that card trade for now? SMR is not a whole lot more than what he has the card up for on eBay, and stuff like that has been trending down.

I wonder if he'd get $22K or whatever it is he's asking, even if the card were in a PSA slab.

bruce

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

..but I'll be god-damned if YOU'RE going to tell me that I can't reach into my pockets, WHEN I want to reach into them. And I was repeating in MY posts what I was hearing from everyone right after I bought the Mantle 2 years ago. Do you actually think that as a beginner that had NEVER bought a card before, graded or otherwise, the moment I purchased it, I became omni-present..know all, see all? BULL! I thought I was buying a legitimate card and two months later when I put it back up on Ebay in one of MY auctions, THAT'S when the emails came pouring in on the card being bad, and VonDole and company being crooks. I listened. I believed it. What the HELL did I know about cards at that point? NOTHING! Just what I was told. I blindly accepted it. I was stupid to do so. Ask PSA-cards (never mind..I know you fear Moser and Von-Dole, why?..I have no idea). I had MANY phone conversations with them. They told me to IGNORE y'all. But you were all squealing like stuck pigs (no pun intended, Dan) so loudly, THAT'S all I heard. The mob formed and dispensed THEIR laws and justice, just like you're trying to NOW. I listened once. No more. The card is third party graded. I didn't grade it. I prematurely passed judgement on it by adopting everyone's HYSTERIA over it. Now I'm awake.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

We really don't need to rehash this stuff again. Let the damned dead beast rest in peace already.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

or is it only 1?

Elliot's editing, as you may have noticed. As long as he keeps it up, you guys can fight about PRO cards the rest of the month.

I got in trouble for saying this once before,l but here goes. Notice how many have lookied, and how many have bid.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...I don't think I've ever seen anyone go back on what they say, and contradict themselves so much, as this guy does...

Is it stupidity, bad memory, or plain dishonesty?

First you say all the crap about these cards and about PRO-Grading LESS THAN 2 MONTHS AGO. Then, you try to claim you have a near-religious apocalypse in a short time which makes you say that these two cards (which you said were wall-paper in June) are suddenly wonderful, un-altered beauties worth almost twice what you paid for them. And, PRO is just as good and reliable as every other Grader. (Laugh-my-butt-off...)

Later, you cry about how everyone's posts on THIS BOARD made you think all the evil stuff about the cardboard you have slabbed by PRO. Now, in this recent post above, you AGAIN say: "I thought I was buying a legitimate card and two months later when I put it back up on Ebay in one of MY auctions, THAT'S when the emails came pouring in on the card being bad, and VonDole and company being crooks."

This is hilarious. Your story is as straight as a dog's hind leg. You really should go back, look at all the crap you have PUT INTO WRITING ON A PUBLIC BOARD, and try to reconcile it with the ridiculous story you're blending-up now.

Then, hope that whatever unlucky, disdainful soul ever buys one of these slabbed scraps-of-paper from you NEVER finds the posts which you YOURSELF have put on this board about these cards. And, pray they don't have a brother or uncle or sister in law enforcement that will want to make you a personal project of theirs...

EBay's policies mean nothing. Most of their policies they don't enforce anyway, and just because they say you can sell this or that doesn't make it legal; and just because they prohibit the sale of other things doesn't make it illegal. EBay is eBay, and their lack of procedure in enforcing their policies makes them a joke. But hang your hat on eBay like you've been screaming...and, if you're ever arrested for fraud, give them a call and see if they'll spend one dime or one minute helping you out...

By the way...for those who have suggested they may be coming to Seattle to visit sometime, the weather is awesome here. Has been for several days now. Clear blue Puget Sound skies, about 81 degrees, almsot no humidity... very mild and gorgeous. David and Jeff and I will meet y'all for coffee and talk vintage cards and such if you come and visit.

I have no need to try and impress people with my financial status or my fleet of expensive cars, etc...but I will brag about the Seattle weather when it gets nice up here. LOL

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...Blow your own horn!! You've done more "horn-blowing" (no pun intended) on this Board than Dizzy Gillespie in his entire Savoy sessions! I was referring to when I placed the MM on Ebay TWO MONTHS AFTER I PURCHASED IT. I was under the assumption that it was GOOD, being professionally graded and all. After getting 100+ emails from Board members (of course only AFTER I WON IT, NOT JUST WHEN I WAS BIDDING ON IT) at that time 2.3 years ago when I FIRST auctioned it, saying that the card was FAKE, I LISTENED. I have already admitted that...get your facts straight. I believed for quite some time that the "BORED" members had "my best interests in mind" (yeah...that's a hoot!) and had told me the truth. I spoke out against the cards I bought as being altered with NO PROOF WHATSOEVER OF THEM BEING SO OTHER THAN RESIDENCE IN PRO HOLDERS (THERE'S a scientific reason!!!) because y'all railroaded and brainwashed me into believng your hogwash. Then, you taught me real good what the story REALLY was when y'all started in on the JAX. A card never MENTIONED in a Mastro auction. Face it..NOTHING in a Pro holder will ever satiate your bizarre beliefs and practices. NOTHING that I ever auction will sit well with you, whether PSAed, SGCed, or graded by GOD! I'm as convinced of that fact as much as I'm convinced that those graded cards are legit!!! Do you understand the chronology, Dan.

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Posted By: Charles(Chuck)Montoya

if anyone knows of any investigations of Pro Grading?
With so very many statements and accusations about altered/trimmed cards, has anyone enough proof to to substantiate these claims. If the answer be yes, then why not (for the sake of the hobby)put together a case to be sent to the proper authorities? I mean, if all that has been said is true, then numerous counts of felonious transactions have taken place. Ebay records alone, are proof, if the charges are true,to stop, once and for all,at least this particular company from continual fraudulent activity.That would in turn prevent others from selling their merchandise and knowingly or not "FOISTING" questionable cards on others.I mean with all of the experience here and the portrayed altruistic crusade to prevent others from being victimized,maybe Pro should be targeted by this board.
LC

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...again and again and again. Whining and name-calling continues to be your last resort, Koos, without ever answering simple, direct questions put to you.

How sad for you.

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Posted By: 2seamer

I enjoy reading and learning about vintage cards here. I have not been on much the last 2 weeks because of the "Koos" saga. Can we all not find something more educational to talk about. The bottom line is that no matter how much everyone -itches at Koos, the fact remains he will not back down. He has a right to sell a 3rd party graded card WITHOUT any legal recourse (we all know that) whether PRO slabbed it or SGC slabbed. Yes, I think I personally would stay away and yes I would not bid on Koos' auctions, but the guy is not out of line as far as his auction. I think he has a 'potty' mouth at times, but he is being mobbed. If you don't like it, don't bid on it....plain and simple. I bet everyone here on this board atleast once has sold or bought "junk" on ebay. I can find 99 out of 100 auctions on ebay that consist of fake autographed memorabilia....those are the real crooks. Go after them. PRO auctions speak for themselves. There is a reason it is slabbed by PRO and not SGC or PSA. I own PSA and BGS(BVG) trimmed cards as well. The Mantle does not look trimmed to me, but I would not put anything past PRO. Give this guy his space. You all are focusing energy in a dead end road. Koos- Good luck with the Mantle. Some of you people have too much time on your hands. Go get a work out in! A weight room does good for frustration. Some of you are heading for coronary disease before 50 I am afraid!

regards all
2seamer

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...How many Ebayers have $22K+ to spend on a card. OF COURSE many have looked but few have bid. NO ONE CAN BID without winning it. The BIN IS the opening bid. This isn't a case where a $20,000 card has a reserve of $15,000 and the first twenty bids are all safely under $100 (the tire-kickers with 42 cents and a half-smoked cigarette in their pocket)!!!! Do bids like that really MEAN anything.."Duhhhhh, I'll bid $3.25 on that NM Goudey Ruth and hope I win it!" It'll take one bidder with one REAL bid and a desire to own one of the best MM cards in the world that has $22.5K in his kick to do so. There's just not that many of us out there that say, "I'll take it", and then worry about the price LATER when we want something!!! Especially with what's currently going on in the Nation's economy. If it doesn't go at $22.5K, that's just a starting point. I can always down-regulate it until it goes.

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Posted By: john(z28jd)

i was sitting here eating cookies and then i read the comment about coronary by age 50,and said oh my god,he could be right,that could be me! and then i went back to eating cookies

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

just died from a heart attack at 44. I just turned 44, so I'm cutting back on wealth.

--------------------------------------------
no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...wouldn't it be interesting if constantly bragging about one's wealth led to seizures and heart attacks?