Not defending Koos or the Mantle, but-

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Posted By: Harry 

maybe there is a reason why the card is listed on eBay without the proper description. Maybe there is some sort of lawsuit going on and they are trying to figure out the value of an UNaltered PRO 8 Mantle. Maybe the reserve is $1,000,000 and there is no chance that anyone is going to get stuck with the card. After all, the bidding is over $8,000 and if Koos really wanted to get rid of it then I would have thought $8,000 would have certainly met his reserve.

If Koos really wanted to pass the card off on an unsuspecting buyer then he could have someone else sell the card for him so that he did not tarnish his reputation.

I do not know the story with this particular card, but something is just not adding up. I have a feeling that there is more here than meets the eye.

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Posted By: Brueso

I was one of the bidders (now up to 24) who genuinely was bidding on this card and found out later it was a bogus auction someone was just conducting so they could get a value on it for it for a lawsuit, I'd be pretty p.o.ed. Of course, we have no way of knowing how many of the 24 are genuine, since the "private auction" is being used to protect the "integrety" of the auction.

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Posted By: Harry

I guess that I was speculating that something is not adding up here. I think that there is more to this situation than just Koos trying to pass the card on to someone else.

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Posted By: David

If there was a lawsuit or similar and they were trying to determine value, one would think they would hire an appraiser. Offering it on eBay this way, would probably be neither accurate or legal.

My opinion is that, if the card is altered, it should be reomoved from any holder, 'altered' should be written across the back in invisible ink, and it should forevermore be represented as altered in sale or show. If it isn't altered, then why the heck is it in a PRO Holder?

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

... posts displaying a whirlwind of common sense offering a possible explanation???? And one of the "bitch & moan" faction STILL has a problem with Harry's sensible and plausible theorey (as if nobody ever auctioned a card with a reserve that wasn't met...should I cite examples?) "Oh..(in the most meeley-mouthed sarcastic voice I'm capable of effecting)..I'm going to upset everybody bidding if someone doesn't win it and make the reserve, Heavens to Betsy". HEY Brueso..WAKE UP!!! If somebody WINS it..you'll complain, and now, given Harry's theorey, if someone DOESN'T win it..you've got a problem with THAT too, meanwhile it's MY $25.00 for the featured ad, not YOURS. And if I want to run the card with a MILLION dollar reserve, THAT'S my right as well. And if you can't deal with it, form a lynch mob. I'm sure that you and Scott would be good at that, given the sufficient strength of numbers behind you.

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Posted By: Brueso

You just demonstrate more and more what a class act you are, Doc. Why don't you see whether the guys at Shop at Home can use another huckster- you seem equally as willing to prey on the uninformed- you know, the "unsuspecting dolts" out there.

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Posted By: jay behrens

to properly quote Don West, "You have to be stupid not to buy this."

I just wonder if there is anyone that can force Doktor (I refuse to use the Koos part ebcuase it besmerches Jerry Koosman's good nickname) to make an apology like Don West had to after it was pointed out that he was the stupid one.

Jay

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Posted By: warshawlaw

This guy has shown his character repeatedly over the last few days and has availed himself of all the scoundrels' tools that eBay furnishes. Let's just resolve not to do further business with him, and let's relegate his further views to the garbage can where his ethics already are. Given what we've seen here, perhaps this fine fellow should be banned from the board.

And BTW, "Doc", don't bother to offer to kick my butt again or launch another misspelling-laden screed. In the words of the Bard, "methinks thou dost protest too much."

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...and BTW, save your lies for defending your clients, unless you can you please point out where I threatened to "kick your butt"???? That's PURE BS. And wouldn't that suit you just fine, to have me BANNED from posting on the message Board, so you can levy your charges and bandy about my name without distraction and another side of the story.

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Posted By: jay behrens

you would actually gain a small measure of respect here IF you were to amend your listing noting that card is altered/trimmed AND removing the private status of the auction.

Jay

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

I don't know Dr. Koos from Adam, but I think that people should leave him alone.

He's auctioning a card. The reserve could very well be very high, which would make his position consistent.

If the reserve is met, then feel free to howl at him for being a hypocrite. Until then it's not really anyone's business.

I think that people should leave his auction alone unless they have real interest in the card.

Remember that the real villains here are PRO, the grading service for those who professional grading is supposed to protect us against, and the guy who had the bright idea of having PRO grade that abortion, so he could sell it to someone who didn't understand that a PRO slab is no protection, rather, it is the opposite.

bruce

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Posted By: benge610

..... but I think it's high time that MW and Julie weigh-in on the Shakespeare reference, so we can send this train wreck completely over the cliff and into the gully awaiting far, far below!

I love this stuff! or maybe I just need to get some sleep, really bad.

Party on, Bard.

Ben.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...trying to FORCE the Devil into turning on the AC.

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Posted By: Sal

Dr. Koos ruin his reputation? That was a good one!!

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Posted By: Brueso

"Remember that the real villains here are PRO, the grading service for those who professional grading is supposed to protect us against, and the guy who had the bright idea of having PRO grade that abortion, so he could sell it to someone who didn't understand that a PRO slab is no protection, rather, it is the opposite."

Bruce- I agree the person who had PRO slab the card was a villain, but frankly, I don't see any difference between what he did and what "Doctor" Koos now is doing. Even if he's trying to assess what the card would sell for given it's in a PRO holder, the results of that experiment are faulty. If you were buying the card and heard later that the seller said it was garbage and anyone who bought it was an unsuspecting dolt, would you be satisfied? And this "well, maybe he won't allow the sale to be completed" is crap, too. I don't care who the seller is- if you put something out there on E-bay, I think you should have to stick to it and sell it (unless you make a mistake like putting a reserve price down as a buy it now price). Koos has already demonstrated (bragged even) that he doesn't give a crap whether a "temporary" auction screws with anyone else's collecting action because he does what he does for his own benefit (that's right, Doc- they're "only rules")- but I am completely contemptuous of anyone who uses something like E-bay as a vehicle to get some attention for their product and then pull it before auction's close.

How could a temporary auction screw with someone's budget? What if you have something like $8,000 and an auction like this pops up and you bid on it, then something else you are interested in pops up and it is going for the same amount- and you don't bid on the second because you've already bid on the first. Yeah, I don't expect Koos to give a crap about something like that because since he has been screwed over by someone else, he now feels he has free reign to screw over the next "unsuspecting dolt".

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Posted By: Brueso

"..... but I think it's high time that MW and Julie weigh-in on the Shakespeare reference, so we can send this train wreck completely over the cliff and into the gully awaiting far, far below!"

How's this for an applicable quote: "What shall become of a man when he gains the world and loses his soul?"

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...a RARE commodity in these related "hate" threads. What you fail to realize is that your words will fall on the same myopically deaf ears that mine do as well. This is 16th century "dipping chair" mentality. If I drown I'm innocent, and if I somehow manage to float, I'm guilty. The ability to descriminate and process information that is VITAL for forming intelligent opinions that YOU possess (called in some circles...rationality, sanity, or common sense), which you will soon realize by the responses to YOUR post, is NOT an ability shared by those that are unwarrantedly berating me. You would ASSUME that like yourself, someone SHOULD have the intelligence to arrive at simplistic concepts. Not so, when put into practice. Over 70% of those responding unfavorably to me either aren't reading an entire post before they mindlessly respond to it, or lack the friggin' (tm@ T-Bob) ability altogether to do so. It's quite a simple concept that both YOU and I understand without even having to give it a second thought: Fraud requires a victim. Someone that is de-frauded for there to be fraud. Without knowing the reserve, there is no way to determine whether I am even ATTEMPTING to defraud someone at this point in time.
Yeah, I know, I've heard the BS..."I'm guilty of wasting some poor bidder's time and tying up his resources". What a crockfull! Over 50% of the time I bid on items that I was interested in winning the reserve was never acheived.

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

"Even if he's trying to assess what the card would sell for given it's in a PRO holder, the results of that experiment are faulty. If you were buying the card and heard later that the seller said it was garbage and anyone who bought it was an unsuspecting dolt, would you be satisfied?"

Since this would be a true statement, I wouldn't be that upset. All PRO cards have something wrong with them, it's axiomatic. Anyone who buys one is bottom fishing in a lake full of mercury and PCB's. Has anyone here ever bought a PRO card? Drop me an email and tell me so, and I'll call you a dolt. I'd do this as a favor to you, in order to give you some incentive not to ever to this again.

"And this 'well, maybe he won't allow the sale to be completed' is crap, too. I don't care who the seller is- if you put something out there on E-bay, I think you should have to stick to it and sell it (unless you make a mistake like putting a reserve price down as a buy it now price)."

I don't think there is a maybe here. For all I know, Dr. Koos is Satan's younger brother, but he has a blank slate with me. I don't have preconceived notions about the guy, so when I saw him go on about how it was evil to sell this card without any indication it was altered, and then I saw him auctioning the card with no reference to its being altered, rather than assuming that he was Satan's younger brother, I assumed that the reserve was infinity. His subsequent comments here have confirmed that assumption. If it says "reserve met" for any amount other than infinity, I'll join you in calling him a hypocrite.

It's a test auction. I don't know why he's running it. It's not my business. I hope he gets the data he's trying to get. I hope that the people who read these words have enough maturity that they don't intentionally screw it up.

Regarding this messing up anyone's buying plans because they need to have vast wads of cash ready to pay for this, they are all bidding on something in a PRO slab, which is STUPID, so anything that screws up this person's collecting experience without actually parting them from their money is probably a good thing. I'd rather have them tie up their money trying to win a bogus card that's not really for sale than have them actually win any number of bogus PRO cards that are for sale.

This is much better than getting an email from someone who has read my professional grading page, and they tell me they've spent $2,000 on PRO stuff, and ask me if I think they got burned. This happens. It is totally not fun.

For all we know, he's going to send email to all of his bidders, calling them dolts, educating them about how badly PRO bites.

The sins being committed here by Dr. Koos are minimal. Worse sins are committed hourly on used car lots all across America. Worse sins are committed innumerable times every day on eBay. Everyone who sends me an EXMT card with a wrinkle is doing worse than this.

Dr. Koos has a bunch of people following him around, all waving those little bats that they give out on "bat night" at baseball games. For all I know, he deserves to be followed around by this crowd, but I don't see that the crowd has much real reason to be enraged about this particular auction.

bruce

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Posted By: MW

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Posted By: Brueso

Since the DOC has made bids in the past where the reserve isn't acheived, therefore it shouldn't bother anyone else who is potentially committing funds to his auction if his reserve isn't achieved- you see, he may never have intended for it to be achieved at all.

Why don't you just post a little addition to your auction, Doc, that "Bidders may be wasting their time". Oh- that's right- let the suckers learn, like you had to do, huh? Since you've been burned in the past, you have a blank check to burn anyone else, right?

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Posted By: Brueso

Bruce- you're talking from the perspective of experience when you say anything PRO is probably crap. But to someone who doesn't have that experience- which is what Koos himself didn't have at one point and that's how he ended up with this piece of garbage- they see slab and they will probably think it's legit. Should we not care if a big money greenhorn gets burned because they've got big money? That's kind of what Koos is asking us to do- "the reserve hasn't been met, so no harm, no foul". I disagree- post legitimate auctions or don't waste anyone's time.

Prior to the past week, I had no experience w/Koos either and thus no opinion- but his actions in even setting up such an auction particularly considering his prior grandstanding about what a saint he was for not passing the garbage he bought onto someone else, plus his insults to others here who DARED question his behavior- formed my opinion of him.

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Posted By: Brueso

...

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

It's not a big deal. People test the waters all the time. It's not against eBay policy. The "time wasting" aspect of it is trivial.

I'm sure that many of us have bid on auctions where the reserve was not met, even though the amount we bid was very reasonable for the item in question. I've had this happened, and I was a little tweaked, but not enough that I'd write a letter to my congressman.

I'm sure that many of us have bid on premium auctions where a hidden reserve wasn't met.

None of this is a big deal. You are on this guy's case bacause of who he is, not because he's done anything particularly awful here. This started out as, "Dr. Koos is bring a hypocrite and trying to stick someone with a bad card!", and is now "Dr. Koos is wasting people's time with an auction with an impossible reserve!" The same tone is there, even though the charge has reduced to nothingness.

Let's see:

- He hasn't broken any eBay rules.
- He hasn't broken any laws.
- He hasn't shipped anyone garbage.
- He hasn't given a buyer a hard time.

Aren't there plenty of cases where people have done any or even all of the above, and aren't those the cases we should be outraged about?

bruce

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

I would bet a small amount of money that the reserve is higher than anyone could reach. I think this is a test auction.

Regarding PRO, yes, I have some experience, and I have a certain amount of self control -- I will not buy any PRO graded card for any amount of money. Dr. Koos made a mistake and got nuked.

People have accused him of trying to foist this off onto someone else, but I don't think that he is doing that. If he were doing that, it would make him a hypocrite. We will know when the auction ends.

I am not saying that Dr. Koos is a nice guy. I have no idea if he's a nice guy or not, but this issue is not about whether or not he's a nice guy, is it? If that's all it's about, someone should just make a thread called "Dr. Koos is not a nice guy", and everyone should pile on him there.

bruce

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

...

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Posted By: Brueso

Bruce, I'm probably as tired of talking about this as you are. But you're right- my annoyance with him did change from "he's sticking someone with a card" to "he's wasting people's time and potentially making them miss out on other legitimate auctions by keeping their financial resources committed to his auction". If YOU don't think that's worth mentioning- so be it, you and I disagree.

Besides which YOU are taking it on faith that he doesn't intend to complete this auction- I start out giving people the benefit of the doubt, but his baloney has made me NOT do that in his case.

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Posted By: Cy

Someone brought up the possibility that all Dr. Koos wants to do is get a feel for the market value of the card. But, from all of the discussion, this card is altered or misrepresented in one way or another. What if the good doctor has an extremely high reserve price that no one will meet, but then he will contact one, or more, of the eager bidders, and sell the card outright to one of them? By doing this, the good doctor will have sold an altered card for a substantial price and there is no ebay trail to follow him. Since this is a private auction, only he and the buyer would know about these shenanigans (I had to get the word shenanigans into one of my posts.) and Dr. Koos gets a substantial payment for an allegedly fraudulent card.

Pretty slick, Dr.

My two cents (nowhere near enough to bid on the Mickey Mantle gem!)

Cy

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Posted By: jay behrens

I was just about to make this same exact post. This definately reeks of this type of scam.

Jay

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

It is also possible that he is going to contact the high bidder, collect payment, fly to the guy's town, and kill him while he sleeps, in order to avoid sending the card.

Same amount of evidence for both possibilities.

It will be interesting to see if he tries to auction this again, described as altered.

bruce

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Posted By: jay behrens

Your scenarino has never played out. At least not that I know of. However, the scenario proposed by Cy and myself has happened on numerous occassions and is a well know scam by those who have been around eBay long enough. And with the way feedback works now, there is no way to take someone that pulls this stunt.

Jay

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Posted By: Cy

That's why I never sleep after ebay auctions!



Cy

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

that there are a lot of theories as to what is happening and not too much evidence to back any of them up. I don't know Dr. Koos either and, as stated earlier, he could be the devil's brother. Then again, maybe not. Some of his posts are rather vulgar, but I've read vulgar posts from others as well. In any event, the issue isn't whether or not he's a boy scout in terms of what he says.

There seems to be a lynch mob mentality forming. Perhaps it is justified, but I personally think its a little early for that. Yes, he could be going to contact the high bidder who didn't meet the reserve and sell him the altered card. Yes, he could be up to many other nefarious schemes. Maybe he doesn't own the card at all and has been bitching about this purportedly altered PRO card for months just to get the Board in a huge uproar before he tells everyone that its a practical joke. The point is that there are many theories, and there really isn't much evidence to support any of them.

Why not indulge in some small amount of trust? The auction will be over in a few days and he's said he'll tell everyone what's going on then. That doesn't seem too unreasonable to me. And, for those of you who truly feel exorcised by the thought that he might really try to foist this piece of crap off on some unsuspecting buyer, here's a thought: do something about it other than scream. Be the high bidder and then refuse to pay because the card is admittedly altered and that wasn't set forth in the description. Maybe I'm naive, but it seems to me that he would surely have some difficulty, even with ebay, if he tried to enforce a winning bid on a card which he had admitted to this board was altered and he hadn't put that in his description.

Bottom line is, if he really wanted to screw a newbie, he is surely smart enough to figure out a better way to do it than this. Consequently, I have real problems believing that's whats going on. It's something else.

Kenny Cole

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Posted By: David

My problem is that I cannot think of a single good reason to be offering fakes in a public and international auction. Fakes do not belong in eBay or MastroNet or Leland's or Sotheby's, no matter what the circumstances. This is not what these places are for.

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Posted By: MW

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Posted By: David

If, in the upcoming auction catalog, MastroNet says, "We've randomly put some fakes and forgeries in this auction, for testing purposes only. Don't worry about it, bid as normal," there would be an uproar and justifiably so.

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Posted By: runscott

PSA rejected this Mantle as altered, and Koos himself considered it altered as well...though he now sings a different tune.

As far as I know, no owner of that Wagner has admitted it was trimmed, nor has it been rejected as altered by another grading company.


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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: leonl

I said I wasn't going to post about this but DARN it. I think there could be some other issues we don't know about, and not related to this subject, but that's another story. I will say that on the face of it I don't like there being non-full disclosure of facts in an auction. It is fraudulent in my opinion, HOWEVER there could be a motive here to find out the value of the card, as it is advertised. That way you could see what damages could be, possibly in a lawsuit, if someone had it sold to them that way. I am not saying I know this for sure as I definitely DO NOT. I will also say that I don't necessarily like private auctions, HOWEVER (I keep saying that) I have mentioned also that I understand them a little bit and about 90% of them are scams. The other 10% are not....19thCenturyonly, Scott Gaynor, and a few others use them and I do not doubt their integrity for a minute.....and if someone has 600 or so feedback, or whatever Doc has, they are usually very trustworthy....so I say for the time being we back off and see what happens.....in a short amount of time (about 100 Scooby shows as my 5 year old would say) we'll know.......who on this board has not been totally wrong and stuck their proverbial foot in there mouth before? Just some things to ponder.....regards all
ps...I am not taking any side....except I will say keep the trash talk off the board, guys. thanks..

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Posted By: David

Michael, as I said, fakes don't belong in any auctions, especially when the seller knows them to be fake. This statement should not be construed as an opinion on the T206 Wagner. I've never seen the Wagner in person, but Doug promised I would get a look next time they auction it.

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Posted By: jay behrens

but why does he have to establish a value for it as unaltered when all that needs to be done use the the price that he paid for the card since that is how he bought it.

Jay

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Posted By: runscott

If he wanted a value for a law-suit, in order to collect damages, wouldn't he need to mention it was altered? That way the value would be lower and he could point out the difference in court. What you are saying makes absolutely no sense - put the peace pipe down!

What he is doing only makes sense for insurance fraud or to hose a non-suspecting bidder when the auction ends...or the alien space monkeys.

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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: David

Michael, how is that not consitant with my statement? If the Wagner was trimmed, it should not have been and should not be auctioned until it is desscribed accurately. On this, I'm sure we both agree.

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Posted By: Anonymous

We're all so fortunate to have you favor us with your wit! You know, when you finally find your rightful place at Shop at Home, the other guys may be put off by your fancy language at first- but eventually you'll all bond in your mutual pursuit of the same goal- the sale of sports collectibles with integrity, and the "education" of the unsuspecting dolts of the world! Your future is very very bright at Shop at Home- congratulations!

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Posted By: MW

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Posted By: MW

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Posted By: MW

You're referring to the fake Ichiro bat they auctioned, right?

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Posted By: BCDaniels

I have 19 feedbacks !!!!!!!

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Posted By: runscott

MW - you know as well as anyone that I have almost no respect for PSA, but they are still considered one of the top two grading companies, along with SGC, by "Almost everyone". PRO is considered rubbish - Koos should have known that when he bought the card, but the fact is that he knows it now, and he also knows the history of the card.

I agree with others that anyone who auctions the Wagner card should also mention that it is trimmed, if in fact they know that it is. I have asked repeatedly for someone to show me a picture of the "before trimming" Wagner, prior to its encapsulation, and though many have said such photos exist, not one of you experts has come up with one. But, as you know, I still feel certain it IS trimmed. But that's another debate.

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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: runscott

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Posted By: runscott

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Posted By: Brueso

was my post. I'm not being anonymous in this debate- I just forgot to type my name in.

Meanwhile, I've wasted enough time talking about or talking to "Dr." Koos.

My final position- I don't care if this IS a test auction for whatever reason. If you do intend to sell this card without making your feelings known to your bidders about its probable altered state, then you're being as dishonest as the ones who stuck you with the card. If you DON'T intend to sell and are only doing a test auction, then you're wasting other people's time and possibly screwing up their bidding on legitimate auctions. But oh yeah- who cares about other people as long as you accomplish your goals.

For all your cloak and dagger about how you CAN'T talk about the REAL reason for the auction until its end, you seem to ignore that it's unlikely anyone who reads this board is a bidder on your card. If they were, they would have retracted their bids a long time ago.

Good luck with yourself, Doc- you've certainly made a reputation for yourself here.