Wow. The incredible disparity of SCD

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Posted By: James/jverri01 

I am amazed by some of the grading I have seen that has been done by SCD. Do they do the grading in-house, or out-source it and just allow the SCD name to be added? I don't mean to be overly-harsh, as I tend to be a bit conservative in condition assessment, but - can a card with paper loss, heavy chipping, etc., really be defined as very good? To me - not really. Here are some T206 examples, (sorry to only include examples of T206s - but, as most of you know - that is pretty much all I touch) currently on Ebay:

A Chance portrait with a "heavy chip" (heavy enough for me to consider it paper loss):
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1821887528
It was assessed as vg

A Bender that is moderately miscut (extensively enough that PSA probably wouldn't have slabbed it)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1821887291
It was also assessed as vg

A Tinker portrait with heavy chipping
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1821888330
Also assessed as vg

A Keeler portrait that is seriously miscut and has a touch of paper loss on reverse
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1821888126
Assessed as EX

Am I just being harsh? Or, is this overgrading?

Other examples of other sets welcomed.

Thanks for hearing me out - and maybe following-up with a reply.

James

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Posted By: runscott

I don't deal with PSA, but I think SGC would have given similar grades. They also don't seem to be too bothered by minor border chipping or the diamond cuts - see my t206 Smith currently on ebay (for illustrative purposes only Elliot!). Also, I've read complaints about the SCD cards being trimmed, but I can't tell that sort of thing from scans - do you guys have some sort of super-resolution screen?

Also James, I guess this means you're no longer interested in E103's. That makes me feel better about selling all of mine. lol! (if I ever see one, you get first shot)

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Posted By: Bob Lemke

Having examined every card from the Florida Find of T206s, both prior to and after grading, I can say without hesitation that not a single card has been trimmed or altered in any way; these are exactly as they came from the factory. It is also my opinion that the SCDA graders were by and large extremely conservative with the grades assigned. The prices most of these cards are bringing with eight hours or so left in the auction tells me that a lot of collectors recognize that fact. Most of the Hall of Famers are already at or above SMR values for PSA cards in the same nominal grades . . . and the sniping has yet to begin.

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Posted By: roy miles

The reason that these items are receiving decent bids is that dealers will try to win the auction and crack the cards out and submit them to a real grading company, like PSA or SGC. Once in a PSA or SGC holder these card values will soar well in excess of what it sold for in a SCDA holder. The graders at SCDA are clueless.

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Posted By: runscott

I'm just curious - what is it about your "find" that makes it so remarkable? If you check out the SCG-graded t206 auctions I'm running currently, almost all came from a recent "find" of probably 2,000 to 2,500 t206's. (estimate based on the fact that there were 4-5 copies of most of the cards I purchased - 5 Matty black caps, 4 Chance yellow portraits, 4 McGraw portraits w/cap,etc.). I only purchased 56 HOF'ers from this more low-key and unadvertised "find", most of which have graded out higher than yours, and I haven't even started auctioning the nice ones. Also, most of ours were Old Mill. I'm looking forward to reading your article in SCD - maybe I'll write one as well for VCBC.

I'm just a novice, so any information to help me understand would be appreciated.

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Posted By: brian

I have purchased t206's from "finds" of 200-700 cards in the past 15 years and most of them have graded much higher than the florida lot. Do the remaining 200 cards have higher grades or were these cards simply handled more?
On another note, do you have any data on T206 back distribution by region? Which areas of the country are you more liable to find Drum, Lenox and Uzit backs?
thanks brian

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Posted By: Eric Angyal

cards with portions of the name/team designation and/or border scraped off the front cannot warrant a vg/ex grade whether it be "old school" grading, "new school" grading, or anywhere in between.

I wonder just how many of these recent bidders on e-bay have jumped in on the T-206 bandwagon because of the Topps promo and other hype and bluster being thrown about and in reality have no clue what they are doing as far as their bidding goes. Ill bet that once a number of those cards get cracked out of their holders and resubmitted to PSA or SGC that there will be some pretty disappointed people out there. Once a few people get burned you will see the prices drop back down to "normal".

My question to the board is how many of you guys who regularly post here are bidding on cards from "The Find of the Century". If I were a betting person, I would bet not to many of you are......

Eric

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Posted By: brian

Your right Eric,
I'm also trying to put together a T206 set, of PSA 5 OR better, and I'm only going to bid on one card from the find.
You and I should talk some time, and swap want list, 2 heads are better than one. be well brian

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Posted By: Eric Angyal

You can e-mail me at angyale@att.net

I am the one who sold you the vg/ex Harry Pattee on e-bay.

Eric

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Posted By: MW

(1) There is nothing truly remarkable about this group of T206s

(2) I see no clear signs of "conservative" grading. I would grade most cards one half to one whole grade lower.

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Posted By: runscott

I still don't see the grading problem - looking at the portraits of Bresnahan, Evers, Chance and Brown (the only ones I was interested in), I found the grades to be very acceptable.

I do find the description of this Tinker card to be interesting though:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1821888330

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Posted By: petecld

The Tinker says:

"...appears to have been cut with a dull blade at the printer, chipping off some of the top paper layer."

But I'm supposed to believe none are trimmed? Excuse me?

Sorry, I was born at night, just wasn't last night.

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Posted By: runscott

...this happens occasionally with SCG also, but not often.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1824347804

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Posted By: runscott

...

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Posted By: vorthian

<< I don't deal with PSA, but I think SGC would have given similar grades. >>

I disagree.

First of all, you presuppose that they would warrant a grade. Lastly, when SCD first came onto the scene and I was able to examine a good sized sample group at the Rosemont, IL show - I found that they were slightly overgraded.

Of course these are my opinions and others may disagree.

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Posted By: vorthian

<< I don't mean to be overly-harsh, as I tend to be a bit conservative in condition assessment, but - can a card with paper loss, heavy chipping, etc., really be defined as very good? To me - not really. >>

A card can be whatever grade the grading company wants it to be, based on their standards. A very admirable Wagner (:)) can even make it into a NASA holder... while providing much to talk about!

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Posted By: runscott (ignorant novice)

Based on their arguments, it looks like another one of the many personal feuds. What is it about SCD that has certain people hacked off? Please, I like to be enlightened so I can understand this stuff.

I can understand PRO and NASA, but this doesn't make any sense. If it's the ridiculous "Find" claim, okay, but what does that have to do with SCD's card grading?

...and Steve, I'm basing my SGC grading comments on 70 that I recently got back from them, mostly t206's.

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Posted By: petecld

What makes ANY of the comments posted about SCD personal?

SCD needs to get their name out to startup a business in a market dominated by two other companies. You don't do that with a whimper - you do that with a bang. What better "BANG" then hyping up some "amazing find of old cards" and grade them? It's business, nothing personal.

Why do you think PSA #1 was a T206 Wagner? PROMOTION! Would PSA #1 sell for $1.2 million if it was a 1977 Topps Bill Melton? Even if it was a PSA10! Can you see that card doing a tour?

There is no reason to think any start-up will be better at grading or have more concern for their reputation then the established grading firms. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. Labeling criticism "personal" without any evidence only casts false doubt on what could be very well intentioned, legitimate feedback.

For the record: Mr. Lemke, I have nothing personal against you, I've been reading SCD for DECADES and will continue to do so, and the hobby wouldn't be what it is today with out SCD and any comment made by me is simply as I see things.

All I'm saying - If SCD Grading is concerned about customers having faith in their grading ability then those cards that "the printer" cut and the others like them, should have stayed out of holders or better yet, the holders labeled "authentic - trimmed".

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Posted By: runscott

Pete - you completely missed my point. I AGREE completely that SCD is hyping a blah collection of cards. I made a point in my post of pointing out that there is a difference between that issue and the issue of attacking their grading based on a bunch of half-assed scans.

And it really detracts from the legitimacy of feedback when you attack something with no evidence, just because you don't think SCD has "earned" the right to make a lot of money from grading their cards.

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Posted By: petecld

Scott, sell one of your T206 - Uh, "variations" - and buy a better monitor.

I'm just kidding you.

I don't know, I see the scans clear enough to make a assessment of the card. I've bought cards from people using worse scans and haven't been disappointed.

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Posted By: runscott

I would have liked one of the HOF portraits, just to get a close look, but the prices were too steep for me - I guess some bidders just wanted to own a card that had been in the news!

And I know you're kidding - you of all people would appreciate the printing stages/anomalies/scrap/etc. that make the t206 set so much fun. By the way, I now consistently call my t205 Reulbach "printer scrap". What should I label those two critters with the yellow-only ink? Please don't tell me "bleached"! Perhaps "pressman sleeping" cards?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

When they were lower priced. I am now out of all of them.

The story of this "find" was great reading, as would be any find story (call it the lottery winner syndrome; there but for the grace of God go I) but it seems to me that it has been given way more play than it might otherwise have received because SCD was chosen to grade the cards. This raises the rather ugly specter of conflict of interest. Those of you who know me know that I railed against PSA in its early days (check out the old VCBC issues) for falsifying prices in the SMR and hyping its own products in the guise of objective reporting. I also noticed that when Beckett began grading cards it hyped its own product by immediately placing its graded cards on a par with PSA and SGC, despite the fact that older grading services, like CSA, existed and were being given no play. Now, with SCD, we see a fairly routine "find" of cards played up like a Wagner discovery with the coverage very heavily salted with references to SCD Authentic, then we have the cards up for sale on ebay fast in the wake of all the hype. If the PR machine works and these cards sell well, which it appears is the case, SCD stands to gain significant marketing advantages for the longer term. My questions therefore are (1) how was it exactly that this neophyte card finder chose SCD rather than PSA or SGC, (2) Did SCD charge the finder its regular fees and were any special deals made with the finder (such as faster turn times than normal), and (3) is there any influence peddling going on here? Anyone want to comment?

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Posted By: brian

Hey Scott
I bought the Evers with bat Cubs jersey. When it gets in I'll post the scans on the board, and we'll see what everybody thinks. I wasn't very impressed with most of the grades, but I'm a sucker for the blue background on this card. Who knows maybe I'll pull it out and send to PSA or Sgc for a comparison.
we'll see brian

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Posted By: runscott

I've only had one and it was trashed, so I re-sold. I was very interested in the Evers and Brown portraits, but geez, Brown went high! BTW, one of the winners of several SCD cards is someone who has buoght from me before and consistently pays a lot - very nice guy.

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Posted By: Marty

I do not have any basic disagreements with the overall grades of these cards. I have questions about the sub grades. How does Tinker get an 8 for centering? Why doesn't the surface of 5 and centering of 8 bring this card higher than the corners of 3? With the Keeler, centering of 6 and surface of 7 brings the corners of 5 up a half. Tinker make it seem that the corners are the most important grade, but with Chance, surface of 3 is not raised even with a 4 for corners and 6 for centering. Bender seems to be diamond cut only horizontally.

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Posted By: brian

Yeah, I almost bid on the Evers portrait, it had really nice full borders, but one of the corners looked a little goofy so I uncocked the gun and put it back in the holster. It will be interesting to see the next group of cards, probably higher grades, and more Hofers. later brian

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Posted By: jeff

...i took a geometry class, but it seems improbable that the Bender is diamond cut in only one direction. Though I agree--it looks that way.

How to resolve this? Either a strange (and sorry, I'm skeptical) original cut, or -- coming full circle now -- "evidence of trimming"

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Posted By: TBob

There is just way too much subjectivity in the grading of cards, whether it be PSA, SCD, SGC, ASA, CSA, PRO, etc. Period. Buy the card not the holder. I recently cracked (or rather "peeled") my first Topps 206 buyback holder. The card inside was a beauty, who wants a crummy looking flimsy holder regardless of what the spinmeisters tell you its value might be? Although I took issue with some of the grades the SCD cards received, there were some cards with excellent eye appeal despite their flaws. The prices just rose too high because of the hype, but SCD is not a non-profit organization and you have to give them credit for an excellent marketing job on the cards.

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Posted By: Bob Lemke

I certainly don't take offense when knowledgeable people express their opinions. I'm not even personally involved with SCD Authentic except to render an occasional opinion when asked or historical perspective. What makes this "Find" special and newsworthy is simply the fact that someone brought it to our attention. I've never even heard of the other couple of finds mentioned in this thread. Certainly if for personal (i.e., tax) reasons a person chooses not to contact the hobby media about a find, that's their business. As for the recent Mint Xpress eBay sale being the lower-end of the Find, not true. It is a fairly representative sample. Similar cards will be in the next Mint Xpress auction, and then in the third auction in SCD. Naturally, most of the "best" cards are going to be in the last auction, the EX+ Magie, for instance. There are still plenty of collector-grade Hall of Famers to be seen, green-background Cobb, SCD 8 McGraw (finger), etc. I can tell you there are very few cards in total which received a NM 7 and only one or two which made NM/MT 8. I seriously doubt that any other Find of T206 has cards which would overall grade consistently higher than these, at least if SCD graded them. It is my considered opinion that most of these cards went directly from the pack to the proverbial cigar box. They were handled little, if at all. Every fault and flaw is factory-induced, not withstanding the occasional corner bump. And I reiterate . . . none of these cards has ever been trimmed or altered in any way after leaving the factory. I'd say the prices speak for themselves. If, indeed, these cards can be cracked out of SCD slabs and given higher grades by other companies, what does that say about the other companies' grading standards?

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Posted By: brian

Dear Bob
I will agree that T206's didn't always come out of packs in nm/m condition, so these may have gone from the pack to the cigar box. However, the wide variance of grades 1-8 , and what seems like more graded 4 or less than 6's or higher. This ratio is totally different than any similiar find of T cards I have seen, usually you see the majority of cards around 6 with a great deal of 7's and higher with only a few cards under 5. I don't think the grading company matters all that much, the usually only vary by a half or one full grade at most. I purchased the Evers with bat Cubs jersey, and am very interested to see the quality of the card and grade. On a side note, this card is about 4 times harder to find than the chicago version, even the the price guide doesn't show it, and it always sells for more than book.
I started a thread on your Nodgrass article, thanks for tackling a tough subject. be well brian

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Posted By: harry

I do not believe that you can even compare the condition of this "find" of cards with the "Southern Find" from 10 years ago.

Does anyone here have any of these "Southern Find" cards in their collection?

It also seems to me that these recent "find" cards exhibit more than just "factory-induced" faults. For example, the wear on this card seems to be a little more than just a little "corner bump".

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1821891172

Also, I see that SCD is using Steve Taft and Todd Crosner to authenticate their Star Company basketball cards. Are they only authenticating them or are they also grading them as I see that one is also selling the product on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1823988187

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Posted By: vorthian

<< Based on their arguments, it looks like another one of the many personal feuds. >>

No feuds, just observations.

<< Please, I like to be enlightened so I can understand this stuff. >>

Of course, everyone wants to party but noone wants to clean up.

<< I can understand PRO and NASA, but this doesn't make any sense. If it's the ridiculous "Find" claim, okay, but what does that have to do with SCD's card grading?

My statements had nothing to do with the "find" claim.

<< ...and Steve, I'm basing my SGC grading comments on 70 that I recently got back from them, mostly t206's. >>

Juxtaposing SGC and SCD - are you saying that they grade/authenticate similarly?

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Posted By: runscott

...and it seemed too much like work.

My SGC grading thoughts were a response to your comment that I "pre-supposed [the SCD cards] would warrant a grade".

Yes, just from the scans of "the find" cards, I feel that SGC would have (on the balance) given them similar grades, and yes, that's based entirely on the 70 cards I just got back from SGC.

The only way to really say that one card company grades like another is to send batches in to both, and I haven't sent cards to SCD and don't plan to - I'm perfectly content with SGC.

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Posted By: MW

Scott --

Being severely constrained by my grading card bias, I'm going to have to agree with Steve (Vorthian) on this one. I really don't think there's any question that SGC has stricter standards for the grading of T206s than does SCD. I thought that there were numerous cards in the "Find" that would grade one-half to a whole grade lower if they were submitted to SGC.

Still, I think that Bob and the marketing people over at SCD did a fabulous job advertising this group of cards, and I think they should be commended in broadening the hobby's appeal beyond many of the standard hobby sources. Good work!

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Posted By: runscott

even if the cards deserved their grades, they got way over book. If not, it was highway robbery! (please, any of you highway robbers, don't take offense)

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

stop pasting and copying parts of everything everybody writes about anything you bung! It's ridiculous! We can see you comprehend the original comments!

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Posted By: vorthian

<< My SGC grading thoughts were a response to your comment that I "pre-supposed [the SCD cards] would warrant a grade". >>

When I said that, I meant that they might not warrant a grade because there might be something wrong. I had an uneasy feeling about a few of the cards from the "find" which is something I do not have when I purchase SGC cards. As far as authenticating and grading ability, I'll take Derek G. over Joe M. 10 out of 10 times. Of course, these are my opinions.

<< The only way to really say that one card company grades like another is to send batches in to both, and I haven't sent cards to SCD and don't plan to - I'm perfectly content with SGC. >>

I wouldn't say that is the only way. We must not forget about personally viewing these cards, and other graded companies' cards, on our own and critique them ourselves.