esoteric question- SCD info ?

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Posted By: David

Maybe the card grew?

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Posted By: Bob Lemke

Many of the measurements, physcial descriptions, photos, etc., cited in the SCBC for esoteric early issues were picked up (by financial arrangement) from Lew Lipset's work. I believe this was one such case, though at the moment the graders at SCDA have my reference book. I'd sure like to replace that crummy McGraw photo in the book, would you be able to send me a nice scan of your Fletcher for that purpose? Thanks much!

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Posted By: leon

Hey Folks,
This is going to only interest a few folks but what the heck. The 2002 SCD (and I presume the earlier ones too) say that the Derby Cigars cards came from Little Derby Cigar cigarette packs. The SCD also says that the cards are 1 3/4 x 2 3/4...the one pictured (mine) is 1 5/8 x 2 5/8.....the reason I mention this is that when I try to put my card into the pack it barely fits side to side. Please be informed this is a slide shell pack so the outside is a little bigger than what the inside "shell" would fit. I believe this is the correct pack these came in although am not 100% sure.(another reason for the post). It has a 1909 tax stamp on it and measures 1 13/16" x 3". It doesn't have any cancellation on it so I believe it could very well be an '09 pack. If this card were the book measurements I doubt very seriously if it would fit. (actually it could not fit as it would be too wide) The card is paper thin and looks to possibly be hand cut too. The few other Derby cards I have seen looked handcut also. IF anyone has any other info or have seen many of these packs I would be interested in knowing..My thinking is these might not have come from the packs although there might be some definitive info that would prove otherwise that I am unaware of..I told ya'll this was really esoteric !! ....any thoughts?.....just another boring night in Alaska.....best regards all

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Posted By: leon

I just showed my wife. She said "maybe the box shrank?". wives (no offense Julie)
regards all

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Posted By: leon

For some reason my software is messed up, OR I am using the wrong email system, or something else, but I can't send scans too well. Is there anyway you can use the one from this thread or maybe one of the other guys knows how to copy it and send it to you from this thread. You are welcome to use it. All I want in return is a smiley You also might mention somewhere in your listing for them that they are possibly hand cut (the few I have seen looked so) and that the measurements are approximate. Actually, it might not be a bad idea to put the word "approximate" in many of your listings so folks don't go bonkers over the thought of having a "short" card. M116's come to mind and I know there are many others where the measurements are not exact. Just a thought.....LMK on the scan and take care.........best regards

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Posted By: David

Leon, as most know you have fine baseball card collection, and I think it's doubly(sp) neat that you are notw getting the packaging they originally came in. I suspect this is making the ultimate display .... Please correct me if I am wrong, but my assumption is that a Four Base Hits pack has not been found yet

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Sorry, had to be a curmudgeon on this one.

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Posted By: David

I was told by a fourth generation tobacco executive who now lives in Seattle that the boxes were actually made, but accidentally shrunk during initial storage, making them unusuable. But luckily for Four Base Hits, Mayo had an unforseen raw tobacco leaf supply shortage, due to famer's strike, and bought up the unused/flat Four Base boxes and shredded them up to fortify their Mayo brand chewing tobacco. The theory being that the brand was most popular with Southern drunks who wouldn't notice any difference. Apparently, it was King Kelly's brand of choice.

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Posted By: David

I was also told, by a third generation clothes manufacturer, that Four Base Hits weren't actually intended to be inserted into packs, and was not infact a tobacco issue. Explaining the unusually large size, she said that they were working proofs/oiginal art for what was to be the first Boston Garter issue. The Philadelphia photographic studio Boston Garter hired was going to have an artist paint the apprel onto the players int he picture, and the card were to be distibuted as store display pieces, in similar fashion as the more commonly known 1910s issues. The issue was aborted as several of the players broke contract. Apparently, John Clarkson quit because he thought has going to actually wear the apparel in the photo, and Billy Sunday quit after he found out that it was men's garters.

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Posted By: David

Bob, I am assuming all this information is going to be included in the 2003 SCD.

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Posted By: David

Bob, I don't require cash for this vital inforation. Instead, for payment I want my head-shot picture as big as Mr. Mint's in the catalog .... Honestly, that photo of Mr Mint has got to hurt sales. Though, I've found it good for dieting, and keeping away bears when camping.

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Posted By: fkw

Hi Leon,
I saw a Derby Cigar card a few years back that had extra wide borders on it, well beyond what your card or most others have, and was hand cut (sort of reminded me of one of those extra border W555s). The card had a line where it should be cut, just like the W555s, but it also had more border beyond that line. I am looking for the auction catalog that had it pictured, and if I find it I will post a picture of the card (I think its a Lipset or Festberg catalog). Hope I can find it. Its still up in the air the cards are even from Derby, as there is no identification on the card. If I remember right the reason Derby was thought to be the source of the cards, was because at one time many years ago, some of the cards were found stored in a Derby box. Even Lipset has doubts of cards origin in his 1986 Encyclopedia Vol 3. This is what he writes on page 103, in the "Cinderella/Unknown cards" part of book.

"Finally we place a group of cards that have been associated with Derby Cigars in the Cinderella category. These cards measure 1-3/4" X 2-3/4" and have no printed advertising. One collector has indicated he found one in a Derby Cigar box, which is the appropriate size. If it could be shown more conclusively that these cards were issued in or with Derby Cigars, these cards would be deserving of a separate listing."

My opinion, the cards are not from Derby, but thats just a hunch. They are very rare, and too me have a similar mystery of origin, just like the W555's. Frank

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Posted By: leon

there have not been any Four Base Hits or Just So containers found. I am searching best regards

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Posted By: TBob

"The theory being that the brand was most popular with Southern drunks who wouldn't notice any difference."

The implication being that Northern drunks could? Another example of regional elitism

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Posted By: David

TBob, I understand where you are coming from. I was raised in Southern Wisconsin and more than once felt the sting of the North/South bigotry when passing through cities like Green Bay and Fargo.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

refuses to even LOOK at any of my cards. Exception being the A35 Kelly. Itwas so big, he couldn't help seeing it accross the room. He said it was beautiful. It's possible he was sick at the time.

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Posted By: Bob Lemke

Thanks, Leon; I'm not much of a computer geek, either, but I'll make something work.