Look at this CROC of S#@T on EBay ...

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Posted By: HalleyGator 

The title lists it as a graded 1938 Goudey Joe DiMaggio card...

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1062888085

I just pray someone doesn't look in a price guide and REALLY think that they are getting a steal by buying this "card" and think that they are getting Joe D's ROOKIE CARD!!

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Posted By: HalleyGator

I don't think there is ANYTHING at all about the card that is remotely related to "GOUDEY" ... but he clearly wants the uninformed to think that they are buying the Goudey Joe D. rookie card.

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Posted By: David

I beleive that the seller's contention is that it is a page removed from the 1938 Goudey 'Big League Baseball Movies' Joe DiMaggio Flip Book.

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

You're right that this guy's lots are awful. Guess his libertarian beliefs don't exclude swindling the public.

Unfortunately, there's no way eBay will ever put a stop to them. Once they see his feedback rating of almost 2000 and the (admittedly bogus) authenticator's name in the title, they'll move on to their next customer service issue.

NASA's website is still up (http://www.cybcity.com/nasa/) - whether they're still
defrauding the masses, I'm not sure.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

I thought the '38 Goudy was the J. d M. American rookie, and the Canadian World Wide Gum, '36, was the Canadian.

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Posted By: leon

Hey Julie,
That's if you don't count the '36 wide pen premium. Some people do and some don't. I have one I picked up real cheap and it's a great picture of him looking like a teenager (although he's really 22). regards....

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Posted By: petecld

"libertyforall" is an old pain contributors to the fullcount board warned many people about in the past.

I see now he is using private auctions so we can't do that anymore. Typical.

This NASA scam is new for him. I believe he is the one who would use images others used in ebay auctions, printed them out, pasted them to card board and sell them as old copys but claimed he didn't know if they were real or not.. I see he is using NASA to gain a look of credibility. NASA and guys like this are made for each other.

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Posted By: David

You're thinking of someone else (I forget his name(s)). Libertyforall has been using NASA for some time. His trick is to cut out pictures from old or new magazines, comics and books, and have NASA grade them as cards. He actually is better than he used to be. He used to call these things cards, giving no hint that they were cut outs. At least of of late, he calls the 'cutout' cards.

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Posted By: David

Michael, I agree entirely with your comments. The problem is that eBay protects this type of seller. As I'm sure many on this board will testify, eBay reacts against whistle blowers.

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Posted By: MW

David --

Perhaps you are right in some situations, but I think complaints that are written and forwarded in a correct and consistent manner DO receive a positive response from eBay.

For instance, email that is sent to Safeharbor@eBay.com or forwarded through eBay "Rules and Safety Support" (link is listed below) are indeed reviewed and quite often, appropriate action is taken.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/basics/select-RS.html

For instance, in the case of Libertyforall, all of the scraps of paper he is selling are listed under the wrong category (pre-1950 Baseball cards) and they are listed in such a fashion as to be misleading. The form provided by eBay Rules and Safety, if filled out and submitted by a large group of board contributors, very likely WILL be acted upon (see below for example).



Or, in the case of the 1938 Joe DiMaggio "rookie" the following might be appropriate:



Any other ideas from board members?

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Posted By: David

Michael, if there is a group effort along your just described lines, I will particate. However, many board members, including I, have made a stink to ebay about libertyforall, and libertyforall is still there.

Personally, I would rather focus on banning any and all NASA graded cards from eBay. I'm not a laywer and don't play one on tv, but NASA seems to be about as legally scrupulous as Enron (jumping on the anti-Enron like everyone else).

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Posted By: MW

David,

Again, the response has to be through the proper framework and in this case, NASA-graded cards are specifically targeted. You have to work with what you've got.

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Posted By: MW

The bottom line is that Libertyforall is adversely affecting other, legitimate auctions. At first glance, it may seem that only those who are completely uninformed about vintage cards would bid on some of the NASA graded crap that is being offered. Instead, I have received several e-mails from concerned buyers and another letter from a “winning” bidder was published in a recent issue of Beckett Baseball Card Monthly. Unfortunately there ARE some novice vintage collectors out there who are buying this stuff, and in some cases, paying many hundreds of dollars for something that is nearly or completely worthless.

Examples:

(1) Scraps cut from Spalding Baseball Guides
Many items that are sold by Libertyforall are not baseball cards. Instead, they are scrap pieces of paper that are cut from 1910-1920s Spalding Baseball Guides. The seller is attempting to deceive bidders while luring them to bid on items they (the bidders) believe are legitimate baseball cards. Instead, the winning bidders are left with worthless scraps of paper – nothing more.

(2) Pages pulled from Flip Books
These items are not baseball cards and should not be listed in the category of “Singles: Pre-1950” Instead, they are “pages” torn from a 1938 Goudey Big League Baseball Movies Flip Book. They have little or no value in this form. Among the “players” sold are Mel Ott and Joe DiMaggio (incorrectly labeled as a rookie card).

There are certainly repercussions for allowing sellers like Libertyforall to continue his fraudulent activities. First, potential bidders may be turned off to our great hobby. Second, the perception that there is a great quantity of fake and forged items for sale will be extenuated. Third, collectors are being ripped off. Finally, it gives the entire hobby a bad name by perpetuating the myth that “70% of the stuff that is out there is fake.” Interestingly, when some of the winning bidders have contacted NASA, they have been told that the items they have won are quite rare and that they could be classified as baseball memorabilia. I know there are many knowledgeable and insightful contributors to this board. Any suggestions/comments?

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Posted By: runscott

A while back Libertyforall was selling very similar black and white poses of Babe Ruth, saying that they were 1933? "Wheaties inserts". Looked like another chopped-up flip-book. I'm not sure if the date was 1933, but it was definitely something prior to the first Wheaties box panels.

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Posted By: David

Other than inexperienced collectors being duped, what bothers me most is that libertyforall is destroying presumably perfectly good and sometimes rare publications (flipbooks, spalding guides, etc). It's like destroying a Honus Wagner bat to make bat cards.

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Posted By: MW

runscott --

The listings that you refer to are none other than pages ripped from a 1932 Wheaties Babe Ruth Flip Book (2002 Standard Catalog, page 479). From one flip book comes 30 or so worthless scraps of paper, each selling for $30 to $200. I would be seriously challenged trying to find a more fradulent practice on eBay than this.