Question about the BL460's appearing on e-bay

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Posted By: Eric Angyal

For as rare as the Broadleaf 460 backs supposedly are, doesnt anyone find it unbelievable that one person could auction 4 of these in a time period of 3 weeks? Makes one wonder...........

angyale@att.net

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Posted By: Elliot

But I don't think he realized how scarce they were at first as he had them at a $250 BIN. Then when he realized I think he looked through all of his T206's for them. He's had a couple of drum backs, also.

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Posted By: Marc S.

He's works at xxxxxxxxxxx, if you want to contact him.

Name: Verrill, James E
Email: james.verrill@xxxxxxxx
Title: xxxxxxxxx
Department: xxxxxxxxx
Division: xxxxxxxxxxx

Boston, Mass.

Phone: xxxxxxxxx


The most interesting thing that I have found is that he sells both graded and ungraded T206 cards on Ebay, with many of the ungraded cards being EX+. And if you inquire about them, he responds something along the lines of "I cannot guarantee what the grading services will say about these cards...you know how they are". Something like that.

I would be interested to hear what anyone has thought about his cards. I think some of the board members here purchased some of what he had for sale?

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Posted By: jverri01

Eric, I am the seller (jverri01). There are/were 5 actually. All came from one of the biggest, most reputable, auction houses in North America. No, I will not tell you which one. I do $200k+ a year with them, and I get first pass options on most of their pre-war and tobacco-related merchandise. 1 of the cards (in my own collection) has been PSA graded. 3 have sold to frequent posters - also established as some of the country's leading authorities on vintage cards - on this board. Please do not raise further question about whether they are authentic. Everything I sell is 100% authentic, and I back this up with an __unconditional__ guarantee. I take enormous pride in the fact that I am able to consistently locate and offer extremely rare tobacco and caramel pieces. I do not do this for a living. I do it because it is my passion and I am no less than completely absorbed in and obsessed by, this endeavor. ...James

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Posted By: warshawlaw

The most interesting thing about this entire discussion is that it proves, like my run-in with Lipset did, that the dealers are listening to what we have to say on this forum. I think this is a huge positive.

Jverri1, weren't you the guy who tried to sell the NASA graded Wagner card?

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Posted By: runscott

...but since I have bought a bunch of cards from James and have been more than satisfied with all deals (before and after the BL 460's) I feel like I should at least say that, since his name is being brought up here. I examined the heck out of the BL 460's and have no doubt they're real and most likely not tampered with - but I'm never 100% sure that an EX or better t206 hasn't been trimmed. Take the Gretzky Wagner - one of the most closely eye-balled scans on the planet - there is still not agreement as to whether the size is right or whether or not it has been trimmed. Also, I haven't yet returned a t206 for trimming, but if I did it would definitely be BEFORE I submitted it for grading, unless a previous arrangement had been made with the seller. And I'll probably send the BL 460 O'Leary in to SGC and if it comes back 'trimmed', which I doubt, too bad for me - I like it anyway. Now if a card came back 'fake', that's a different story!

Regarding the number of BL 460's that showed up at one time - I think that's easy to explain. If I had a great-grandfather that was a Broadleaf smoker, and he passed his cards down the descendent chain, I would expect ALL of his cards to have Broadleaf backs. In fact, James also auctioned several BL 350's - I bet they all were purchased by the same smoker originally. Maybe the guy switched from Piedmonts in late 1910 or early 1911, and that explains the 460 backs. I bought some Sweet Caporal cards the other day and every single one of them was cut so short that the name showed partially on the top, and they were all in exactly the same condition - my guess is that the original owner bought a bunch of packs at the same time and got cards that had been cut from the same sheet - not to much of an imagination stretch I don't think. Anyway, the t206's are great because the variations give us so much to conjecture about.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I just wanted to point out that I have bought from james Verrill in the past, without any complaints. My personal feeling is that he over grades his auctions. Many people may feel the grading is accurate, but I do not bid on how the seller grades, but by how much I feel it is worth. I think most of us on the board do that. I bid on James cards and will continue to do so.

As far as the NASA graded stuff, I voiced my displeasure to him about his selling of the cards, whether this had a factor in him no longer selling them I do not know, but I have not seen him selling them for a long time.

I think it is great that the dealers are reading the board, but I do feel wee need to be careful not to bash them without first making contact with. This blind bashing will run these dealers away. That's try to show some restraint in making accusations with little to no knowledge. This was one of the big reasons John Billingley would not respond in the forum, and I have found that he is wonderful to deal with.
I think the knee jerk reactions most the times are wrong, and contact with these people first before writing would be useful. I think we have all got nasty grams from the people you really don't want to deal with when you question them about an issue.

I'm cold in Minnesota,

Lee

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Posted By: leon

I could share some thoughts on the subject but won't. I have bought from James and had good luck also. I think there are some serious issues here though that I don't want to comment about in public. In the long run if we run our collecting on the "caveat emptor" basis we will be fine. IF I were buying a high dollar card (over a $100 or so) I would get a guarantee on authenticity and "UNTAMPERED WITH" and be done with it. On high grade cards no guarantee=no buy for me......the Broadleaf's look good to me from the scans though...best regards

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Posted By: jverri01

I do not expect anonymity, by any means, but, do you think posting my personal information was appropriate? Hardly. Anyway, it is public information. As is yours:

Marc Schoenen
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Philadelphia, PA

As for "if you inquire about them..." - what are you talking about? I have always been honest and direct with you. We have done business several times, most recently for a T206 Magee card, in the beginning of December. And, didn't you leave glowing positive feedback? Yes. You did: http://cgi2.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=jverri01&page=3&items=25>

Was the Magee card authentic? Does a person really accumulate 1,683 positives and only 3 negatives if they are in the habit of selling deceiptfully?

I guess I am missing something here. Why am I being bashed? Because I was lucky enough to unearth a group of BL 460's?

And, by the way - my primary initiative is as a collector, not a "dealer", as you say. I sell in order to upgrade my own collection, so my "habit" does not eat up all of my resources.

I work for a living - as you know.

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Posted By: jverri01

Actually, only "part of me" is a dealer.

The NASA Wagner - yes, this was something I was tangled up in. NOT by choice. I was contractually obligated.

As a result, I sued Guy Stopard (NASA president). Because the case is ended, I can now happily say that, I recently won the case and was awarded 100% of the monies I sought. My charge against NASA/Stopard is that they employ fraudulent business practices, and the U.S. Judicial system, as well as the AG, agree.

I am the biggest advocate on this earth for deep-sixing NASA permanently. As I have taken signifigant steps toward, by winning the law suit.

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Posted By: petecld

Sorry it's so long but this issue is important to me.

<<. . . I do feel wee need to be careful not to bash them without first making contact with. This blind bashing will run these dealers away. >>

Excuse me, I DON'T NEED THEM - THEY NEED ME! It's MY money they need to survive. If I have an issue that may expose them as (potentially) defrauding other collectors and the issue is brought up on a chat board that they are aware of and where all readers could be considered potential bidders then I would think the seller (billjo in this case) would take extra steps to tell everyone if there is an explanation. But I guess I don't rate an explanation from John Billingley. Guess that means I'm not good enough to bid in any of his future auctions.

As for "running these dealers away" - Good riddance. Does anyone miss the endless list of scam sellers on ebay who sold reprints, copies or obviously trimmed cards? Didn't think so.

I thought one of the reasons boards like this are to educate collectors of outright scams or of potential bad cards? How do you do this without instantly "bashing" the seller? There is a vast difference between "bashing" and "questioning" and I re-read the post regarding the issue and I don't see people bashing him - just questioning. If you have nothing to hide - that shouldn't be a problem.

John Billingley - If you're reading this, I too am a past customer of yours. If you have a logical explanation for selling cards you knew were trimmed without mentioning this when you resold them I would honestly like to know what those reason(s) are. And I'm sure a lot of other people who read this board would like an answer too. How come we don't rate? My approach to this situation is nothing personal but strictly business. The rules are different and I don't rest on past positive dealings with people as an excuse to lower my standards and use semantics as an excuse to re-sell or pass off questionable cards.

I've sold cards on ebay and I've gotten e-mails questioning me about card sizes, condition - "you said one crease - I see two" and so forth and I've never dodged a question and have never took any question personally. I've re-scanned cards for people and they in turn have been high bidders for those cards. I would never think of responding, well, so-and-so said it was ok for me to say or do this. That's a sad response. I realize other collectors are like me - they know there are too many bad sellers, money is important to them, and you need to be extra sure these days. When I have questioned a seller and never received a response then I didn't bid in that auction and won't in their future offerings. I've sold trimmed cards before and you bet for d*** sure I described it that way. Yes, it sold but not for much, but that is the problem with trimmed cards, value is killed. That fact is all the more reason to be clear about a "trimmed" card and a "short" card. if I was in John's situation and a large group of potential bidders were presented with a potential situation to loose faith in me via a public forum then I would want to do all I can to keep that faith by responding in that same public forum and protect my good name. In my experience - silence only protects the guilty.

Buyers don't need to accommodate sellers any farther then paying for our bids. If a seller wants my money then they need to accommodate me AND my questions. That's simple good business practice.

Knowledge is power. Selling cards via a vast communication network like the internet is a double edge sword - good reputations grow just as fast as bad ones.

Whew! I'm done.

Thank you for your time - collect on!

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Posted By: vorthian

<< The NASA Wagner - yes, this was something I was tangled up in. >>

You stated that you were awarded 100% monies sought, was this the purchase price of the Wagner? Any other interesting details about this case that you would like to elucidate and elaborate on since the case is officially over to better educate the other board members?

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

You certainly weren't being bashed! I was just about to look you up on e-bay, since ex+ T206s are about as good as I'll buy; get anything better, and they've been messed with. Graded or not!

Julie

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Posted By: MW

Pete,

I agree with you. Furthermore, I think that some dealers' associations with certain, less-than-reputable grading companies reflect either an unbridled profit motive (and lack of integrity) or just a general (and sometimes sudden) lack of knowledge.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I guess "questioning" instead of "bashing" would be a better word.
As far as John Billingsley stated to me, "it is a no win situation." This discussion with James kind of proves it. I commend James for replying, whether you agree with him or not. I personally would like to know the situation with the NASA cards, Did you have finacial interestsin the company? If you did and did sue him it seems like he was trying to correct a bad situation.

That's what's great about this country freedom to voice (or not voice) your opionin.

I'm done, next.

Lee

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Posted By: vorthian

<<< The NASA Wagner - yes, this was something I was tangled up in. NOT by choice. I was contractually obligated. >>>

Not by choice eh? Was it not you that agreed to the contract?


<<< As a result, I sued Guy Stopard (NASA president). Because the case is ended, I can now happily say that, I recently won the case and was awarded 100% of the monies I sought. My charge against NASA/Stopard is that they employ fraudulent business practices, and the U.S. Judicial system, as well as the AG, agree. >>>

How is it that YOU won the case when the client decided to take it to "serious litigation?" [see below]

<< Re: Lot of T206 RARE BACKs/T206 Wagner/Responses to the board/Feedback

From: jverri01
Date: 6/13/01
Time: 9:13:10 AM
Remote Name: 130.64.61.15
Comments

Leon, I appreciate your consideration. I also understand the sentiment expressed, and have no intention of trying to dissuade anyone about how they should feel, think or react. There are a number of "background" factors at play here. On a surface level, it seems to many of these folks like an attempt to pawn a reprint. There is considerably more to it than that. I was under contract, with specific obligation to a client, and acted and reacted accordingly. I can tell you this - my client is extremely high-profile, and since the entire NASA fiasco, he has decided to take this in to serious litigation. I have agreed to sign on, and, although I can really say no more at this time, it is NASA that will be targeted for unreputable practices. What I was thinking is only a small part of what was involved. It was I that convinced my client to not relist the card, despite the fact it meant considerable financial losses. It was I who convinced him to approach it via civil action. And, it is I who will go to the boards for him on this. When I made my posts, I could only hint to these things, and I still have very little liberty to discuss it. I can say this: anyone who simply blindly accuses me of trying to sell a reprint is just not informed on the matter. They are speaking from an emotional perspective and not taking the time or effort to arm themself with all of the details. Perhaps, after I take NASA down, I will have regained some of my credibility. I have learned from the experience, and I will never go under contract before seeing an item, regardless of the history I may have with the individual client. Regards, Leon. James >>

<<< I am the biggest advocate on this earth for deep-sixing NASA permanently. As I have taken signifigant steps toward, by winning the law suit. >>>

Juxtapose that with this embracement of NASA...

<< Re: I called NASA about the Wagner

From: JVERRI01
Date: 4/26/01
Time: 1:01:14 PM
Remote Name: 130.64.61.15
Comments

Hi, Michael. I am the seller of the card you speak of. First - thank you for making your ignorance so obvious - makes it easier for me to defend myself. If you had of taken more than twelve seconds to read my listing, you would have realized that the page of scans of the card ALSO includes a scan of the letter. As knowledgeable as you attempt to present yourself as being, perhaps then you would be able to answer a question for me: please name a grading company, a single one will do, which will authenticate a card that has been trimmed? C'mon, I'm waiting. NOBODY will do this. Use your head. READ THE LETTER. The original listing was EXPLICITLY clear about the actual authenticity/or not of the card. Guy Lombard, President of NASA (and, to reply to another post - NASA is "North American Sportscard Authenticators" - not affiliated with the Space program - but, that is another battle with another moron, for another day). Whether you agree or disagree with their views on grading, or their accuracy in grading - you can not dispute the fact that they have graded thousands and thousands of vintage cards. This entire process is subjective anyway, "Mike". My investment in this card is signigicant. My belief that it is in fact authentic is based on a simple fact: I had the card evaluated by a close friend, who also happens to grade for a different grading company - one of the big 3, no less (No, not NASA, as clearly, they are not of the big 3). The card is real. It can NEVER be authenticated because it has been trimmed. Send it to PSA, you will have the same result: An encapsulated card with a letter to accompany it. There are also rumors that NASA revoked their statements reflected in the letter, voiced by a person who had "contacted NASA". Rubbish. I have extensive docu- mentation from NASA and independent sources which are in writing. Whoever gets this card is getting the real thing, and they are getting it for a steal. There is absolutely NO FRAUD here. I am an EXTREMELY reputable person, very fair and honest. My feedback clearly reflects that I am a person of integrity and professional valor. Having to put up with cheap shots from people like you who have absolutely no basis of fact for the unfounded claims they make, is waste of my time. I am not selling this card for notoriety, quick money, or to build a reputation. I am simply offering a card for sale that I have invested money in previously, and would now like to liquidate. Think before you speak. And, maybe try having an open- mind. There are already too many close-minded cave men in this society. >>


Key phrases: No Fraud, The card is real, and like to liquidate.

I wonder if this "friend" was present for the deposition?

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Posted By: Ted Kennedy

Dude,you are the King of GOSSIP
You rarely if ever discuss anything else but other people and there comments. It's a waste of time you obviously have.