The All Underrated Team (not in the Hall of Fame)

[cgjackson222]

Like the All Overrated Team, this is hopefully just for fun, so let's try to keep the bickering to a minimum.

I am defining underrated as not in the Hall of Fame. A separate list could be made of people that are in Hall of Fame, but are underrated by public perception (lower than they should be on All Time Great lists, etc.), but I think it is hard to determine public opinion.

SP: Luis Tiant
RP: Billy Wagner
C: Gene Tenace
1B: Keith Hernandez
2B: Bobby Grich
SS: Bill Dahlen
3B: Ken Boyer
LF: Lance Berkman
CF: Kenny Lofton
RF: Dwight Evans

Most of these are in a virtual tie: Kevin Brown and David Cone are other worthy starting pitchers, Dick Allen is a worthy 1B, and Lou Whitaker a worthy 2B to name a few.

[G1911]

Not in the hall, removing those who are kept out for reasons of cheating concerns and not an evaluation of their play, and removing those not eligible for induction. Personally, Creighton and Barnes are 1/2 but they can't make it under the current ruleset.

I do not support the hall candidacies of all of these players.

SP Curt Schilling
SP Bob Caruthers
SP Jim McCormick
SP Luis Tiant
C Charlie Bennett
1B Fred McGriff
2B Jeff Kent
3B Ken Boyer (Rolen is likely to make it in 1-3 years)
SS Bill Dahlen, Glasscock not far behind.
LF Lance Berkman
CF Kenny Lofton
RF Bobby Abreu

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by G1911

Not in the hall, removing those who are kept out for reasons of cheating concerns and not an evaluation of their play, and removing those not eligible for induction. Personally, Creighton and Barnes are 1/2 but they can't make it under the current ruleset.

I do not support the hall candidacies of all of these players.

SP Curt Schilling
SP Bob Caruthers
SP Jim McCormick
SP Luis Tiant
C Charlie Bennett
1B Fred McGriff
2B Jeff Kent
3B Ken Boyer (Rolen is likely to make it in 1-3 years)
SS Bill Dahlen, Glasscock not far behind.
LF Lance Berkman
CF Kenny Lofton
RF Bobby Abreu

Good point re: Scott Rolen. Yes, I meant to not include players that may be inducted in the next few years, so I removed him.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Good point re: Scott Rolen. Yes, I meant to not include players that may be inducted in the next few years, so I removed him.

Abreu and Kent from my list are on the ballot too; but Kent is at 32% with 1 year to go, and Abreu is barely clinging to remaining on the ballot. Seems very unlikely either will get in by the writers. I think Rolen probably gets to 75% next year with a very weak crop of newcomers to help him. I hope he does, he deserves it.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Like the All Overrated Team, this is hopefully just for fun, so let's try to keep the bickering to a minimum.

I am defining underrated as not in the Hall of Fame. A separate list could be made of people that are in Hall of Fame, but are underrated by public perception (lower than they should be on All Time Great lists, etc.), but I think it is hard to determine public opinion.

P: Luis Tiant
C: Gene Tenace
1B: Keith Hernandez
2B: Bobby Grich
SS: Bill Dahlen
3B: Ken Boyer
LF: Lance Berkman
CF: Kenny Lofton
RF: Dwight Evans

Most of these are in a virtual tie: Kevin Brown and David Cone are other worthy starting pitchers, Dick Allen is a worthy 1B, and Lou Whitaker a worthy 2B to name a few.

Great minds think alike! I think we were making out posts at the same time but I like your non-HOF twist.

SP - Jim McCormick - Should be in the HOF.
C - Charlie Bennett - The best defensive catcher of the 19th century by a long shot!
1B - John Olerud - One of the best pure hitters of the 90's, but didn't get the recognition because he wasn't a power hitter.
2B - Jeff Kent - Got caught up in the whirlwind that is Bonds and it's almost a footnote that he is the all time leader in HR for 2B.
SS - Jay Bell - Yet another player overshadowed by Bonds.
3B - Robin Ventura - Getting beat up by a 46 year old when you are 26 doesn't help, but Ventura was crazy good.
LF - Jeff Conine - Only player to debut with the Marlins and be on both the 97 and 03 WS teams.
CF - Kenny Lofton - The man is a HOFer, and it's not even close.
RF - Bobby Abreu - Speed and power. Very underrated and a top 20 all time RF in my opinion.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

Great minds think alike! I think we were making out posts at the same time but I like your non-HOF twist.

SP - Jim McCormick - Should be in the HOF.
C - Charlie Bennett - The best defensive catcher of the 19th century by a long shot!
1B - John Olerud - One of the best pure hitters of the 90's, but didn't get the recognition because he wasn't a power hitter.
2B - Jeff Kent - Got caught up in the whirlwind that is Bonds and it's almost a footnote that he is the all time leader in HR for 2B.
SS - Jay Bell - Yet another player overshadowed by Bonds.
3B - Robin Ventura - Getting beat up by a 46 year old when you are 26 doesn't help, but Ventura was crazy good.
LF - Jeff Conine - Only player to debut with the Marlins and be on both the 97 and 03 WS teams.
CF - Kenny Lofton - The man is a HOFer, and it's not even close.
RF - Bobby Abreu - Speed and power. Very underrated and a top 20 all time RF in my opinion.

Haha, yes we had the same idea at the same time! Looks like everyone agrees on Kenny Lofton so far.

[G1911]

What I really don't understand is how Lofton got 3.2% of the vote and straight fell off the ballot after one year. He was not even seriously considered by the voters.

[clydepepper]

Good to see Luis Tiant get some love.


.

[isiahfan]

SP - Tommy John
RP - Billy Wagner (Quis?)
C - Parrish - look at his stats vs his contemporaries (Carter/Fisk) not too far off and he had an arm..was he a HOFer?..No...but he never gets the respect or mentions his numbers suggest he should
1B - Dick Allen.... 1 vote shy...(Mattingly had a short but elite career too right?)
2B - Whitaker - arguably better than Trammell
3B - Rolen - Hope he makes it
SS - Nomar - was elite for a good 6? years....more than Koufax
OF - Dwight Evans - Cannon....and put up good stats
OF - Curt Flood - Stats ahead of Brock until he started FA
OF - Dale Murphy - B2B MVP
DH - Kingman - Always brought some pop

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by G1911

What I really don't understand is how Lofton got 3.2% of the vote and straight fell off the ballot after one year. He was not even seriously considered by the voters.

That's how I feel about Whitaker. I think he belongs in, but how the hell does he fall off the ballot after one vote while Trammell eventually gets voted in???

[packs]

SP - Tim Hudson - never great but the guy nearly went 100 wins over losses
C- Jorge Posada - great offensive player at the position
1B - John Olerud - the guy could hit
2B - Larry Doyle - the best second baseman the NL had for a long time
SS - Trea Turner - never gets talked about but he's GOOD
3B - Eric Chavez - no HOFer but very good at hat he did at his peak
OF - Bernie Williams - falling off the ballot after two votes?
OF - Kenny Lofton - agree on all counts
OF - Curt Flood - put him in as a contributor to baseball

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by packs

SP - Tim Hudson - never great but the guy nearly went 100 wins over losses
C- Jorge Posada - great offensive player at the position
1B - John Olerud - the guy could hit
2B - Larry Doyle - the best second baseman the NL had for a long time
SS - Trea Turner - never gets talked about but he's GOOD
3B - Eric Chavez - no HOFer but very good at hat he did at his peak
OF - Bernie Williams - falling off the ballot after two votes?
OF - Kenny Lofton - agree on all counts
OF - Curt Flood - put him in as a contributor to baseball

I like a lot of the players on your list, but am a little confused by Trea Turner. Isn't he 29 years old and currently playing in his 8th season?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Isn't he 29 years old and currently playing in his 8th season?

I suspect this is why he’s not in the Hall of Fame

[packs]

Yeah is that some kind of no no? He’s not in the HOF. Wasn’t that the parameter? I feel like he’s maybe the premier shortstop in the league now but he’s mostly anonymous. That makes him underrated in my book.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by packs

Yeah is that some kind of no no? He’s not in the HOF. Wasn’t that the parameter? I feel like he’s maybe the premier shortstop in the league now but he’s mostly anonymous. That makes him underrated in my book.

I guess we were going for players that could have been elected to the Hall of Fame, but weren't. I think underrated current players could be a different thread though, and Trea Turner could certainly be on the list.

[packs]

Ah, OK I can play by those rules too.

I will instead nominate Tony Fernandez.

[rats60]

P Curt Schilling
C Bill Freehan
1b Steve Garvey
2b Lou Whitaker
SS Nomar Garciaparra
3b Dick Allen
LF Sherry Magee
CF Andruw Jones
RF Dwight Evans

[egri]

P Billy Pierce
C Sherm Lollar
OF Dom DiMaggio
OF Dwight Evans
OF Fred Lynn
1B John Olerud
2B Jeff Kent
SS Nomar
3B Ken Boyer

[smokinjoe]

SP - Roger Clemens
RP - Billy Wagner
1B - Fred McGriff
2B - Lou Whitaker
3B - Scott Rolen
SS - Bill Dahlen
C - Thurman Munson
LF - Barry Bonds
CF - Dale Murphy
RF - Reggie Smith

[Georj]

How is Bill Frehan not in the hall of fame?
11 All-Star games, 5 Gold Gloves, 2nd in MVP voting(1968),
3rd in MVP voting(1967)
Best catcher of his era

[ooo-ribay]

Why couldn’t Jeff Kent even get a sniff in 10 years? Gold Gloves? No, not the best but serviceable.

[packs]

Pretty sure Kent has a PED cloud over him that kept him out.

SP: Johan Santana
C: Wally Schang
1B: Hal Trosky
2B: Ross Barnes
SS: Jack Glasscock
3B: Graig Nettles
LF: Hideki Matsui
CF: Jim Edmonds
RF: Jermaine Dye
RP: Joe Nathan

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by packs

Pretty sure Kent has a PED cloud over him that kept him out.

SP: Johan Santana
C: Wally Schang
1B: Hal Trosky
2B: Ross Barnes
SS: Jack Glasscock
3B: Graig Nettles
LF: Hideki Matsui
CF: Jim Edmonds
RF: Jermaine Dye
RP: Joe Nathan

I just did a Google search and found nothing to indicate Kent was suspected of PED use. If anything, I found some comments that Kent was in favor of more testing.

If you know of anything that shows differently, please post a link to it. I'm not a big Kent fan, but I don't think people should post accusations without any proof to back them up.

[packs]

I said cloud. He had his best seasons with Bonds. May have tinted perspectives and kept him out.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Kent was very unpopular with teammates and media if memory serves. I don't think he was under any PED cloud.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't have a comprehensive list, but some candidates for all underrated in my mind would include Lou Whitaker, Ken Boyer, and Albert Belle.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Kent was very unpopular with teammates and media if memory serves. I don't think he was under any PED cloud.

Yeah, its hard to believe that someone could be as unpopular as Barry Bonds, but Kent game him a run for his money in the disliked department.

Agreed that Kent's not getting in does not have to do w/ roids.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't have a comprehensive list, but some candidates for all underrated in my mind would include Lou Whitaker, Ken Boyer, and Albert Belle.

Whitaker and Grich are pretty a much a tie in my book.

So are Berkman and Belle. I give the nod to Berkman because they both had OPS+ of 144, but Berkman had slightly more longevity (Berkman had over 1,000 more plate appearances) and was less of a liability in the field. Both were solid in the playoffs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Speaking of Belle, the mid 90s Indians teams were insane. Take 1996. Thome. Murray. Manny. That's 3 500 HR hitters. Belle, the best player on the team probably. Vizquel. Julio Franco. Lofton.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I just did a Google search and found nothing to indicate Kent was suspected of PED use. If anything, I found some comments that Kent was in favor of more testing.

If you know of anything that shows differently, please post a link to it. I'm not a big Kent fan, but I don't think people should post accusations without any proof to back them up.

I’m a Giants fan and never particularly liked Kent but liked his on field contributions (when he wasn’t getting in dugout fights. BTW, his scuffle with Bonds came when Bonds stood up for a teammate Kent was berating). Kent was as adamant as Rafael Palmerio that he never did steroids but I don’t know. Remember the 2002 WS Giants? EVERYBODY on that team was big, even the little guys like Marvin Bernard. Kent also played with suspected juicers in Houston. In any case, his personality probably cost him HOF votes and I hate that about the Hall. Nice guy juicers like Papi, Piazza and Bagwell get in and the voters use whatever bias they have to keep other guys out. Kent may or may not belong but I hate the hypocrisy of the voting.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Speaking of Belle, the mid 90s Indians teams were insane. Take 1996. Thome. Murray. Manny. That's 3 500 HR hitters. Belle, the best player on the team probably. Vizquel. Julio Franco. Lofton.

and people forget how amazing Carlos Baerga was for a few years

[KJA]

SP: Johan Santana
SP: Chuck Finley
SP: Frank Tanana
RP: Kent Tekulve
RP: Jesse Orosco
CP: Joe Nathan
C: Lance Parrish
1B: Carlos Delgado or Keith Hernandez
2B: Lou Whitaker or Bobby Grich
3B: Buddy Bell
SS: Dave Concepcion or Tony Hernandez
LF: Albert Belle
CF: Kenny Lofton
RF: Reggie Smith
DH: Hal McRae

[SAllen2556]

I could do this with just Tigers:

SP: Mickey Lolich / George Mullin
RP: John Hiller
C: Bill Freehan / Lance Parrish
1b: Darrell Evans / Norm Cash
2b: Lou Whitaker
SS: Harvey Kuenn / Donie Bush
3b: Tony Phillips
OF: Bobby Veach
OF: Chet Lemon
OF: Magglio Ordonez
DH: Rusty Staub / Kirk Gibson

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by KJA

SP: Johan Santana
SP: Chuck Finley
SP: Frank Tanana
RP: Kent Tekulve
RP: Jesse Orosco
CP: Joe Nathan
C: Lance Parrish
1B: Carlos Delgado or Keith Hernandez
2B: Lou Whitaker or Bobby Grich
3B: Buddy Bell
SS: Dave Concepcion or Tony Hernandez
LF: Albert Belle
CF: Kenny Lofton
RF: Reggie Smith
DH: Hal McRae

Nice list, I like how you've filled out the team with a DH, closer, etc.

If I were to do the same, I'd have:

SP: Luis Tiant
SP: Orel Hershiser
SP: David Cone
CP: Dan Quisenberry
C: Thurman Munson
1B: Keith Hernandez
2B: Bobby Grich or Lou Whitaker
3B: Ken Boyer
SS: Bill Dahlen
LF: Lance Berkman or Albert Belle
CF: Kenny Lofton
RF: Dwight Evans or Reggie Smith
DH: Brian Downing

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

I could do this with just Tigers:

SP: Mickey Lolich / George Mullin
RP: John Hiller
C: Bill Freehan / Lance Parrish
1b: Darrell Evans / Norm Cash
2b: Lou Whitaker
SS: Harvey Kuenn / Donie Bush
3b: Tony Phillips
OF: Bobby Veach
OF: Chet Lemon
OF: Magglio Ordonez
DH: Rusty Staub / Kirk Gibson

Yeah, Detroit as some really good players that didn't make the Hall and make a solid team just by themselves.
Dizzy Trout was also a really good pitcher, and Rocky Colavito had some really good years with Detroit as well.

[clydepepper]

Someone, not me, (I'm just sayin'), should add up the choices posted so far to see who has the most support on this.



(I'll do it if nobody else has by end of season).


.

[sbfinley]

SP: Mickey Lolich
SP: Luis Tiant
SP: John Donaldson
SP: Tommy Bridges
SP: Roy Welmaker

RP: John Franco
RP: Tom Gordon
RP: Dan Quisenberry
RP: Francisco Rodriguez
RP: Joe Nathan

CP: Jonathan Papelbon

C: Thurman Munson
1B: Don Mattingly
2B: Artie Wilson
SS: Jigger Statz (Out of Position, but I didn’t want to leave him off)
3B: Ken Boyer
OF: Vada Pinson
CF: Alejandro Oms
OF: Lefty O’Doul
DH: Buzz Arlett

Bench: Jigger Statz
Bench: Dwight Evans
Bench: Lance Parrish
Bench: Willie Davis
Bench: Jim Gilliam

[Peter_Spaeth]

P Tiant
P Schilling
P J Santana
P K Brown
RP Quisenberry
1B K Hernandez
2B Whitaker
SS Vizquel
3B K Boyer
OF D Murphy
OF D Evans
OF J Edmonds
C Freehan
DH Belle

[rats60]

P Curt Schilling
P Luis Tiant
P David Cone
P Bret Saberhagen
CL Joe Nathan
C Bill Freehan
1B Steve Garvey
2B Lou Whitaker
3B Bill Madlock
SS Nomar Garciaparra
LF Al Oliver
CF Kenny Lofton
RF Dwight Evans
DH Hal McRae

[Kevin]

John Tonelli is thisclose to 1000 professional points.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Someone, not me, (I'm just sayin'), should add up the choices posted so far to see who has the most support on this.



(I'll do it if nobody else has by end of season).


.

We could maybe do polls for each position? Might be too much effort.