V89 William Paterson set likely issued in 1924, not 1922 or 1923...show what you got!

[brianp-beme]

The Canadian issue V89 William Paterson cards are identified by PSA and SGC as a 1922 issue. I have seen it elsewhere listed as a 1923 issue. At some point I put it down in my hobby notes as a 1924 issue. Thanks to Brian's post about the Waite Hoyt card in this set that evidently pictures fellow teammate Herb Pennock, I decided to look into this set a little and see if I could narrow things down.

There are 50 cards in the set, and 36 of these pictured players were firmly entrenched with the team designated on the front of their card during the 1922 through 1924 time frame. Big name examples from this group include Ty Cobb with the Tigers, Walter Johnson with the Senators, and Tris Speaker with the Indians.

It is the other 14 players in the set that might help with bringing the date of issue into focus.


First are the following that could indicate a possible 1922 date, with the team designated on front of card noted:

Joe Bush/Yankees - played exactly three years for the Yankees, which happens to be 1922 through 1924

Everett Scott/Yankees - began playing for Yankees in 1922

Heinie Groh/Giants - began playing for the Giants in 1922

Clyde Milan/Senators - last year in MLB 1922, with the Senators

Del Gainor/Cardinals - last year in MLB 1922, with the Cardinals


The following are players that started playing for the team designated on their cards during the 1922 season:

Hugh McQuillan/Giants - traded to Giants on July 30, 1922

Travis Jackson/Giants - MLB debut with Giants on September 22, 1922. Played 3 games.


The following are players that started playing with the team designated on their cards at beginning of 1923 season:

Willie Kamm/White Sox - major league debut in 1923 with White Sox

Jack Bentley/Giants - began playing with Giants at start of 1923 season

Herb Pennock/Yankees - first year with Yankees in 1923


Player that began playing for team designated on their card during the 1923 season:

John Watson/Giants - with Giants starting June 7, 1923


Players that began playing with the team designated on their card at beginning of 1924 season:

Joe Oeschger/Giants - played 1920-23 with Braves, and played with Giants in 1924 until picked up off waivers on July 1, 1924 by Phillies

Dave Bancroft/Braves - first year with Braves 1924

Chick Fewster/Indians - first year with Indians 1924


Mystery designation:

Rube Marquard/Dodgers - last played for Dodgers in 1920, played with Reds in 1921, and with Braves from 1922 through end of career in 1925


So what do I make of all this? The V89 set is not a common issue at all, in fact after almost 40 years collecting vintage I still have not seen images of a good portion of this set. Because of this scarcity, I highly doubt that this was a multi-year production. Couple this with no known team designation variations, and I think most would likely agree with me.

If we consider the set being issued only during one year, I believe the earliest this set was issued was early 1924, as Chick Fewster was traded from the Red Sox to the Indians (the team designated on his card) on January 7th, 1924. Furthermore, Joe Oeschger was sent from the Braves to the Giants (the team designated on his card) on November 12th, 1923 in the trade that brought Dave Bancroft to the Braves (the team designated on his card).

Another less conclusive but still noteworthy fact is that almost half the set (24 cards) depict members of either the Yankees or Giants, which played each other in consecutive World Series in 1922 and 1923.

Of course there is always the Rube Marquard, which lists him being a Dodger, whom he last played for in 1920. There always has to be a head scratcher for the researcher.

Brian

[terjung]

Great post from an underrated set! Personally, I only have the one V89 but would love to see some other examples out there.

[brianp-beme]

Great Sisler Brian! I love the look of the pose. I think I have seen the Sisler once before...an example of just how uncommon these card are.

I only have one from the set, an Eddie Collins. The scan is not of my card...mine is nowhere near as nice of shape.

Brian

[BuzzD]

Played 1921 to 1924 NYY

[asphaltman]

Certainly a strong case for 1924. My one and only.

[therajah]

WmPatersonJohnson.jpg

WmPatersonAlexander.jpg

WmPaterson Hornsby.jpg

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by terjung

Great post from an underrated set! Personally, I only have the one V89 but would love to see some other examples out there.

That Sisler is outstanding! Never seen that one before. Congrats.

[brianp-beme]

Great cards everyone! I don't remember seeing any of them before. I like the Groh...it even looks like his one hand is choked up on the big part of his famous bottle bat.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

And you got to love Hornsby's balloon pants.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Brian V.H. recently posted a Bancroft from this set on the September pickups, and I thought this great looking and interesting V89 deserved to have its image snatched (hope that is okay Brian!) and give this thread a reason to resurface.

Show them if you got them.

Brian

[egbeachley]

Could Rube Marquard be listed with the Dodgers simply because his picture is in a Dodgers uniform? Would need to see an example to disprove this theory.

[spec]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Could Rube Marquard be listed with the Dodgers simply because his picture is in a Dodgers uniform? Would need to see an example to disprove this theory.

Marquard is indeed shown wearing a Brooklyn uniform, a head and shoulders portrait in the same outfit as Zach Wheat in this set.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by spec

Marquard is indeed shown wearing a Brooklyn uniform, a head and shoulders portrait in the same outfit as Zach Wheat in this set.

I can easily envision that this is the cause of the Dodgers attribution...thanks egbeachley and spec!

Brian

[egbeachley]

Occam’s Razor.

[familytoad]

I "Scooped" this card up several years ago. It's a cool set, there cannot be many full sets or even set collectors out there...

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Occam’s Razor.

I believe that is the preferred brand of many simple card doctors.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by familytoad

I "Scooped" this card up several years ago. It's a cool set, there cannot be many full sets or even set collectors out there...

Thanks Brian...Max at the minimum is another card I haven't seen.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Any more of these floating out there?

Brian (always in search of floaters)

[shagrotn77]

[brianp-beme]

Cool Travis Jackson card. I have seen this before a few times, probably just because it is his rookie card (still his rookie card even if it is a 1924 issue).

Brian

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Brian V.H. recently posted a Bancroft from this set on the September pickups, and I thought this great looking and interesting V89 deserved to have its image snatched (hope that is okay Brian!) and give this thread a reason to resurface.

Show them if you got them.

Brian

Brian,

All good. Thank you for the attribution.

[Leon]

A few I, sadly, used to own

[brianp-beme]

Mr. Dour and Mr. Grin, may they reunite once again.

Brian

[Brian Van Horn]

This may support the later than 1922 theory on the set. Here is a photo circa 1924 offered on eBay by Rhys at prewarsports and the V89 Bancroft I picked up. If nothing else, the pictures were taken moments apart:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/c-1924-DAVE...af42%7Ciid%3A1

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

This may support the later than 1922 theory on the set. Here is a photo circa 1924 offered on eBay by Rhys at prewarsports and the V89 Bancroft I picked up. If nothing else, the pictures were taken moments apart

Nice photo Brian...looks like they airbrushed out the extra wire and the above the grandstand supports as well.

I think the player on the left first tied his shoes, as seen on card, then picked up a bat, as seen in the photo. But perhaps he was one of those illogical 'pick up a bat and then try to tie the shoes' type of people.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

I thought this was a worthy thread to resurrect, and feel free to add thoughts about the revisionist 1924 dating for this great set, and of course card images.

Brian

[Cubanball]

Here is my Adolfo Luque. Luque was with the Reds starting in 1918. But 1923 was his big year. 10.7 WAR, 27-8 .771, 1.93 ERA, with 6 shutouts. All stats listed led the league.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Cubanball

Here is my Adolfo Luque. Luque was with the Reds starting in 1918. But 1923 was his big year. 10.7 WAR, 27-8 .771, 1.93 ERA, with 6 shutouts. All stats listed led the league.

Nice card, and 1923 was sure a stellar year for Luque. It does make sense that he made the cut to be featured in the relatively small (50 card) V89 set in 1924, considering that in 1922, with the understanding how pitchers were statistically evaluated at that time, he had a very rough year with a record of 13 wins and 23 losses, and in my estimation would most likely not have been considered for inclusion if these cards had instead been issued in 1923.

Brian

[PhillyFan1883]

Cool findings love this set