1936 Joltin' Joe

[WWG]

Does this look like the same card? Especially from the backside. What would make this jump from a SGC 5 to a 7?

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...maggio-rookie/

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...tPosition=40|0

[nsaddict]

Thinner borders lol....appears to be same card.

[BLongley]

I think it is the same... looks like someone cleaned it up a bit. Yikes!! This is bad!

[clydepepper]

The card on the right appears to be smaller


Thanks...I'll be here all week.

[bbcard1]

I'm not saying it's a rigged game, but the person sending it in can make a big difference.

[steve B]

Unless it's been "enhanced" the corners on the 7 are much nicer.

Has it been trimmed? The Heritage scan can be blown up pretty far and I don't see anything really off about the edges. If it's been done, it was done really well.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

I'm not saying it's a rigged game, but the person sending it in can make a big difference.

This does not appear to be a case of the person submitting it the second time getting a higher grade. Based on the backs of both cards they are the same card however the corners are much sharper on the SGC 7. Appears to be an altered card.

Good find to the OP and it is amazingly (scary) what can be done to cardboard. Makes me wonder just how many cards in my collection were in much lower graded slabs at one time.

[pawpawdiv9]

Thanx, when i spent the day yesterday jacking the price up on it.

[PiratesWS1979]

Good catch! Notice how the one spot along the edge is missing.

It's a real shame what has happened to two of these beauties, makes you wonder about the rest of our cards.

[ullmandds]

Is this different from the infamous altered PWCC one from a ways back? Or was that gehrig???

[prestigecollectibles]

It's difficult to enlarge the REA image, but it is the same card.

[Rhotchkiss]

Great catch. It’s a real shame someone took a really nice card and turned into an altered card in an SGC 7 slab. Boo on SGC as well.

Just a suggestion, but maybe change the name of the thread to something making it more obvious that an altered card is being called out - you probably get many more eyes on the thread.

[ullmandds]

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...234837&page=36

soon its gonna be tough to find an unaltered joe d 36 goudey!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Is this different from the infamous altered PWCC one from a ways back? Or was that gehrig???

That one was cleaned not trimmed I believe.

[JollyElm]

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

thats a lot of TRIM to get past SGC?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Darren that's fantastic. The incredible shrinking card.

[oldjudge]

The hobby could be improved if auction houses worked with one another. I wonder if the winner of the card in REA is the consignor to Heritage. If so, and he or she is on the board, perhaps they could shed some light on what, if anything, happened to the card.

[darwinbulldog]

"This card was reviewed and encapsulated under the new SGC grading system."

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Darren that's fantastic. The incredible shrinking card.

That is some great work and absolutely smashes it out of the park. Wow


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

The hobby could be improved if auction houses worked with one another. I wonder if the winner of the card in REA is the consignor to Heritage. If so, and he or she is on the board, perhaps they could shed some light on what, if anything, happened to the card.

it hardly seems realistic to expect someone to confess to trimming the card and it's fairly clear from Darren's presentation that the card has been trimmed.

[pokerplyr80]

Was there that much size variance in this issue that the smaller card wouldn't have raised a red flag?

[timn1]

A mess....

Makes me glad I can't afford high-end cards, LOL.

[BLongley]

I would change the title to get more eyes on it... including Heritages since it’s live with them right now. I did send a PM to Pete Calderon letting him know. This card should likely be stopped from selling....this is not a good look for SGC after the t206 autos, now this trimming... and TPGs in general with trimming as there are a lot of issues with more high value modern cards showing up trimmed and graded (easier to find them due to serial numbers)....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Was there that much size variance in this issue that the smaller card wouldn't have raised a red flag?

I don't know about the 36 WWG specifically but size variations are common for the 33/34 Goudeys. Of course all the nice ones just happen to be on the shorter side lol.

[WWG]

SGC didn't drop the ball once but TWICE, here's the same card regraded as a 7 with the old SGC slab.

[JeremyW]

It's pretty obvious. Jeremy w@agoner.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Harold Arlen could write about it.

Slice slice here
Dice dice there
It won't give the graders pause
That's how we do our card repair
In the merry old land of Oz

[JeremyW]

Why would you trim a great card?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

Why would you trim a great card?

I assume that's a rhetorical question.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

Why would you trim a great card?

I'm $ure I don't know.

[Rhotchkiss]

OP, great work outing this. Would you consider changing the title of the thread so it’s more obvious what the thread is about? Thanks

[JeremyW]

Why did it get so quiet?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

Why did it get so quiet?

Because the title has not been changed and in the grand scheme of this beloved hobby...most people don't seem to give 2 shits!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Because the title has not been changed and in the grand scheme of this beloved hobby...most people don't seem to give 2 shits!

LOL tell it bro. If you want noise, post something about shipping rates.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Because the title has not been changed and in the grand scheme of this beloved hobby...most people don't seem to give 2 shits!

Indeed. Insert picture of horse blinders here.

Makes me wonder if grading has more of an impact on protecting the consumer or making card doctors tons of cash. It would restore my faith a bit if Heritage would pull the card and SGC took it out of the holder but I will not hold my breath on either issue.

[JeremyW]

This should be a hot topic.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Indeed. Insert picture of horse blinders here.

Makes me wonder if grading has more of an impact on protecting the consumer or making card doctors tons of cash. It would restore my faith a bit if Heritage would pull the card and SGC took it out of the holder but I will not hold my breath on either issue.

Some of each.

[nsaddict]

Isn't board member Peter Calderon consignment director at Heritage? Perhaps he will see this post?

[mechanicalman]

If this was a PWCC auction, the global price of pitchforks would have doubled by now.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

Isn't board member Peter Calderon consignment director at Heritage? Perhaps he will see this post?

I copied and pasted this from BLongley's previous post in this thread:

I would change the title to get more eyes on it... including Heritages since it’s live with them right now. I did send a PM to Pete Calderon letting him know. This card should likely be stopped from selling....this is not a good look for SGC after the t206 autos, now this trimming... and TPGs in general with trimming as there are a lot of issues with more high value modern cards showing up trimmed and graded (easier to find them due to serial numbers)....

Brian

[Jobu]

Definitely took a trip to the barber -- wash and a shave please!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

If this was a PWCC auction, the global price of pitchforks would have doubled by now.

Well, recall that the last time, it turned out Brent himself was the one who had purchased the SGC 50 out of REA and submitted the PSA 7 before selling it privately.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

Isn't board member Peter Calderon consignment director at Heritage? Perhaps he will see this post?

I let SGC know, in case they want to look into it.

[BLongley]

FYI, Pete did write back and they are aware of the issue. They will be reviewing the card.

[STL1944]

I know there have been cases of auction houses stopping the sale of a fake item, but have there been examples of AH stopping the sale of a trimmed item and then the item being pulled out of the flip?

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by WWG

Does this look like the same card? Especially from the backside. What would make this jump from a SGC 5 to a 7?

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...maggio-rookie/

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...tPosition=40|0

As a collector with a lot of cards, graded and ungraded, bought over many years from many shows, dealers, and auctions, this is really discouraging every time I see another one of these.

One aspect that is particularly discouraging is that no one on this board is surprised in the least. We congratulate the original poster for his great finding, and we move on and buy our next NM, NM-MT, or MT card that TPG's have certified as legitimate examples of an unaltered mint or nearly mint card.

For those looking for unique or hard to find cards and who do not have a long-term relationship with a reputable dealer, we are left with the options of a.) stopping collecting,
b.) buying lower grade or raw examples, or
c.) continuing to buy "certified" cards which we know are more and more likely to have been doctored for profit by a card tailor (alteration expert).

At some point if enough of this happens, there will be a tipping point. The collections we have spent good money on are sure to see a valuation impact. The valuation of this type of high-condition card is based on a combination of demand and scarcity.

If the scarcity can be addressed just by slicing off 1/16th of an inch on a border, how is that much different than just having another copy printed/made? Both outcomes reduce scarcity/increase supply, which in turn should reduce value in a market that is so sensitive to relative scarcity of high-condition examples.

Sorry for the rambling but this is really discouraging.

Q: Where have you gone Joe Dimaggio?
A: I've been to the card tailor.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The valuation, with due respect, is based primarily on the flip. Everyone knows there are lots of high grade altered cards in slabs. In times past the thought of an altered card was anathema, but times have changed. Prices have not been affected at all as far as I can tell, nor will they be IMO. They keep going up. Way up.

[brianp-beme]

Definitely not surprised, and was always glad I made the conscious decision many a moon ago to collect lower condition cards...the trimming is usually a lot more obvious.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

I believe the grading companies would at least be able to identify my cards as trimmed...I think.

Brian