Working theory: Murad T51 ’number-on-front’ variations

[slightlyrounded]

After a looong time looking, thrilled to finally have the Williams College ‘number-on-front’ (NOF) variation in my hands, in any condition. While the base T51 set has been relatively easy to put together, the 25 NOF cards have been much tougher for me. The Wiliams NOF variation is widely considered to be the first first basketball card produced and relevant because the Williams Ephs were arguably the top team in the country at the time of issuance (according to the Premo-Porretta_Power_Poll). This variation has a current PSA pop of only 2 but likely is only a tiny fraction of the overall ungraded population.



Even though there seems to be a general consensus that the NOF variations pre-dated the non-numbered issues, I haven’t see much mention as to why - I think the answer lies in the T6 redemption coupons that were included with each Murad cigarette pack:



My theory is the 'premium’ coupons (as well as the backs of the T6 cabinet cards themselves) were mistakenly printed with alphabetical numbering that differed from the actual T51 card-fronts themselves. So, the Williams T51 card reads #14 but the coupon has Williams College at #24. Because the coupon specifically requests the redeemer to “Write plainly your name and address, and order picture desired by number….” its safe to say that some collectors would have used the numbers on the coupon while others would have made their college request based off the T51 numbering. The resulting headache/confusion let to the small numbering being knocked of the printing plates mid run and the subsequent 1-25 series (First Edition) were printed as the more common “no-number” variety.

So that’s my case - Would love to hear other theories. Finally - realizing this is a baseball card forum, here’s some relevant red meat in a few variations:

[swarmee]

Hmm; it's possible. I figured with the 1911 date on those coupons to redeem for the T6s, those would have been inserted in packs more around the time of the 2nd edition printing.

[slightlyrounded]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Hmm; it's possible. I figured with the 1911 date on those coupons to redeem for the T6s, those would have been inserted in packs more around the time of the 2nd edition printing.

I've always been under the impression that T6 and T51 were issued concurrently. We know for example that the T6's came out in mid-1910 since an earlier version of the redemption coupon exists:



(a bit blurry but states at bottom College series will be ready to mail on June 1st, 1910)

If you look at other ATC coupons that share that same expiry date, there is pretty clear evidence that all were being produced no later than early 1910. For instance with the T3 premiums, here's a Turkey Red coupon:



And a Fez:



What I'm less sure of is the T51 timing - would love to see some evidence they were being issued in 1909 as commonly suggested. If they were, maybe the NOF variations were standard prior to the redemption coupons being included in cigarette packs; Then, when the T6 offer started, ATC decided to scrap the original numbering system and removed these from the T51 printing plates?

[swarmee]

It's a plausible explanation. I think the 1909 date comes from their similarity with the T206 and T205 issues.

[conor912]

I don’t have a whole lot to offer to the theory, but wanted to chime in with some love for Murads. Some of the most visually appealing and under rated cards in the hobby, IMO.

[lampertb]

Reviving this old thread with some post-pandemic questions:
1) What do you think the value today of the #14 (NOF) Williams card would be?
2) The only population figures that I can find separating the Murad cards into NOF, 1st series, and 2nd series pops is years old; what's the best way to go about estimating how many of each are still in existence for Williams?

[Pat R]

The shipping of the Murad College series began in April 1910 and the series was discontinued in December 1911.

Murad Colledge series.jpg

[Mikan99]

Originally Posted by Pat R

The shipping of the Murad College series began in April 1910 and the series was discontinued in December 1911.

Attachment 644707

I believe the April 1910 date refers to the T6 Murad College series (larger size cards). There are two versions of the T6 redemption card and the one shown is the revised version (with mail out date), while the original T6 redemption card just had the offer expiry date.

Given the above, and that the Murad T51 came before the T6, the date for T51 cards is generally thought to be 1909.

We can also be fairly sure that the T51 cards from Series 1 that have the number (e,g Williams #14 basketball card) came before the Series 1 without numbers. This comes down to the fact that the Series 1 cards are the only ones to have a numbered version. No other series in the set have a number version.

Keen to hear other thoughts on this.

https://www.projectnaismith.com/guide-prewar-cards

[swarmee]

https://forum.vintagenonsports.com/p...ighlight=murad

Post 17 has some historical data about the number of cards graded by 2016 when I wrote an article about it in the Wrapper.

[Mikan99]

Originally Posted by swarmee

https://forum.vintagenonsports.com/p...ighlight=murad

Post 17 has some historical data about the number of cards graded by 2016 when I wrote an article about it in the Wrapper.

Thanks, lots of great info in that and definitely worth the read.
So, two question for clarification, do you put the Series 1 (with numbering variation) as being released before the Series 1 (unnumbered)? Do you know why they had a numbered variation?

cheers

[swarmee]

Yes, I think the numbered likely came first. I don't know why they had a numbered variation.

[slightlyrounded]

Originally Posted by Pat R

The shipping of the Murad College series began in April 1910 and the series was discontinued in December 1911.

Attachment 644707

I believe 1st series began packing June 5th, 1909. 1st series, Second edition began shipping Sept 24th, 2010.

Page 8 of the full American Lithographic Ledger clearly shows this. Unfortunately no mention of the NOFs within the document. (Side note, what an AMAZING document).

Number-on-front (NOFs) were quite obviously the first thing to be printed (early 1909) but then the number was knocked off and they continued printing them. My theory continues to be the coupons asked for the T6 premiums to be ordered by 'number' (alphabetical), but the differently numbered t51s were causing confusion OR at least the ATC thought they would once inserted.

[slightlyrounded]

On second pass - I’m now wondering if the original NOF production date was May 25th (I assume 1909). It certainly appears to say that date under the series 1 info that was glued on top of the writing. Highly speculative on my part, but that would mean that they printed the NOFs for a week and a half.

[srittenberg]

Someone told me about T51 variations but I hadn't researched until today and found this thread. After reading what I can see here, is it correct that the first series has three variations:
a. College Series 1 to 25 (Number on Front) <-- very rare
b. College Series 1 to 25
c. College Series 1 to 25, 2nd Edition

I didn't even know there were any variations until I found this thread. Which are scarcer, the 2nd Edition or not 2nd Edition? I haven't seen an NOF but I may have missed something in a link above & will check. If someone has a pic they can share, I'd appreciate it.

I have the set complete but may split into 2nd Edition / Not 2nd Edition. Are any particularly tough to find within those groups?

Are there variations in the rest of the set? Thanks for reading and appreciate any responses. -- Steve Rittenberg

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by srittenberg

Someone told me about T51 variations but I hadn't researched until today and found this thread. After reading what I can see here, is it correct that the first series has three variations:
a. College Series 1 to 25 (Number on Front) <-- very rare
b. College Series 1 to 25
c. College Series 1 to 25, 2nd Edition

I didn't even know there were any variations until I found this thread. Which are scarcer, the 2nd Edition or not 2nd Edition? I haven't seen an NOF but I may have missed something in a link above & will check. If someone has a pic they can share, I'd appreciate it.

I have the set complete but may split into 2nd Edition / Not 2nd Edition. Are any particularly tough to find within those groups?

Are there variations in the rest of the set? Thanks for reading and appreciate any responses. -- Steve Rittenberg

Read the article I posted in the link in post 9 here. I ended up selling my top-rated PSA registry set to Dave Lemon a few years back due to the PSA grading incompetence scandal.
Here are images of most of the Number on Front variations.
https://www.psacard.com/psasetregist...timeset/187482
https://www.comc.com/Cards/MultiSpor...+murad+1910,ot

[lampertb]

My question in reposting this thread, though, was not so much about dates as about ratios.
Is there any up-to-date way to calculate how many NOF T51s there are relative to other 1st series cards? I can't find anything post-pandemic, even though the hobby exploded since.

[slightlyrounded]

Originally Posted by lampertb

My question in reposting this thread, though, was not so much about dates as about ratios.
Is there any up-to-date way to calculate how many NOF T51s there are relative to other 1st series cards? I can't find anything post-pandemic, even though the hobby exploded since.

According to PSA there are currently 4 graded Williams #14 NOFs, 23 1st Edition (regular, with no number), and 43 Williams 2nd Edition.

That ratio looks about right to me. For comparison, Michigan’s pop report is 3 NOF, 8 1st edition (regular, no number), and 30 2nd edition.

[lampertb]

Yes, great. That's what I wanted to find.
Is that page/info available to the public, or do you have to be a PSA member (which I am not)?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by lampertb

Yes, great. That's what I wanted to find.
Is that page/info available to the public, or do you have to be a PSA member (which I am not)?

You don't have to be a member to access the PSA pop reports.

https://www.psacard.com/pop/multi-sp...e-series/49281

[teza11]

Probably worth mentioning that PSA has not done a great job segregating the series variations in this set. Initially there was no "NOF" differentiation, so no doubt some of the early pop counts will contain both. Also, PSA has a separate 1910 pop report for 2nd Edition cards. I have no idea if this is still active.

https://www.psacard.com/pop/multi-sp...e-series/49282

Jeff

[leonardcohen2211]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Yes, I think the numbered likely came first. I don't know why they had a numbered variation.

They came first me am curious this what I am about to ask now.

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by leonardcohen2211

They came first me am curious this what I am about to ask now.

Do...not...be...about...to...ask...now.

[Beercan collector]

Originally Posted by leonardcohen2211

They came first me am curious this what I am about to ask now.

Your a funny f****r 😂