E270 McCarthy question

Archive · #1 10-29-2007, 09:24 PM

Posted By: Tim Newcomb

I bought this in Reading for an E270 type, assuming it depicted Alex McCarthy, but a friend says he thinks it might be Joe McCarthy instead. The checklists only give last names:
McCarthy (Toledo)
McCarthy (Newark)

so, can anyone verify which McCarthy this is? (Looks more like Alex, but...)

Thanks,

Tim

Archive · #2 10-29-2007, 09:44 PM

Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

I thought it looked a lot like Joe but am not familiar with what Alex looks like. I did however find this excerpt from a book about Joe McCarthy;

" Born in 1887 in Germantown, Pa., McCarthy lived to be 90 (1978) and served as manager of the New York Yankees, Chicago Cubs and Boston Red Sox. While viewed by many sports fans as among the greatest managers ever, Levy explains, McCarthy lacked top praise at first because he had never played in the majors. His field experience was limited to minor league play – including the Toledo Mud Hens. He combined his talents for the game with an analytical mind and abilities that taught him to manage people, statistics and hone the skills necessary to get the best from his players."

martyOgelvie
nyyankeecards.com

Archive · #3 10-29-2007, 09:47 PM

Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Knowing that Joe played for Toledo is pretty much of a clincher-- my friend was right, and I am psyched!

Tim

Archive · #4 10-29-2007, 09:54 PM

Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

I have known about this card for a few years now, and have been buying all of them that I could (unfortunately there haven't been too many offered). There is only one player with the last name of McCarthy that played for Toledo during the 1909-1914 time period and it was Joe McCarthy. I have picked up a few of these cards over the years knowing it was Joe, but the one that has eluded me to this point is the one you just showed, but since it is out, it is good for the hobby to know.

Also, Tim should you decide to part with it I would love to add the TinTop to make the trifecta complete!

-Rhett

Archive · #5 10-29-2007, 11:45 PM

Posted By: brian

It doesn't look like Joe McCarthy, unless McCarthy's nose got longer and his lips disappeared, but there is one way to find out. Here is a link to the university where his biographer Dr. Alan Levy teaches:

http://www.sru.edu/pages/11194.asp

If you can contact him and send the scan of the Colgans, or maybe the biography has photos of him in his youth?

Archive · #6 10-30-2007, 08:49 AM

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

The 1911 Spalding Record lists this:

J. McCarthy, Toledo: 92 games, 274 AB, 28 runs, 62 H, 10 2B, 2 3B, 2 HR
8 stolen bases, .226 average.

It shows him in 36 games as an outfielder with a .909 fielding average. which is among the bottom fourth.

A few years ago I got the Standard Catalog to correct the first name on the Lelivelt card.

I have a 1937 Record Book from The Sporting News, with McCarthy on the cover. His nose looks wider and bigger than the guy on the Colgans. But I see no other McCarthy's with Toledo in 1911, and that listing had "J" not "A" in hitting line. I think you guys are right!

Good call, guys. Well done!!! That is what this board is about!

Archive · #7 10-30-2007, 09:00 AM

Posted By: Derek Granger

Nice! ... thanks for bringing this to the attention of the forum! With the exception of the 1911 T5 Pinkerton, I was thinking the only other pre WW2 cards of McCarthy would be the 1930 Baguer Chocolates or the 1930 Blue Ribbon Malt Cubs...

Archive · #8 10-30-2007, 09:13 AM

Posted By: skydash55

I also show a "McCarty" that played for Newark.

Archive · #9 10-30-2007, 12:21 PM

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

TIM N

Here's the Toledo team pix from my 1909 REACH Guide.

Joe McCarthy is the pictured in upper righthand corner (#8). And, on close magnification of this picture, it
leaves no further doubt that your E270 is that of "Marsh Joe". Next time you pick-up an esoteric item such
as this at the Philly Show bring it over to me, as I usually have my Reach and Spalding Guides (1905-1910)
with me.

FRANK W

Is that Toledo player, Wakefield (#5), any relation to you ?
After all, isn't Toledo just north of you from Kentucky ?

TED Z

Archive · #10 10-30-2007, 12:24 PM

Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Thanks again to all! Nice to exchange great card info with knowledgeable people for, instead of all the other stuff this board sometimes groans under the weight of...

Archive · #11 10-30-2007, 07:16 PM

Posted By: Paul

I've been looking for this card for awhile now, without success, but now it's been "outed." I guess I'll have to pay a pretty penny if I ever find one. I still don't think it looks like Joe, but what do I know?

Archive · #12 10-30-2007, 07:48 PM

Posted By: Dan Bretta

I don't think it looks like him at all....but I will say that I think if it is not him it was certainly intended to be him, but Colgan's got the wrong pic. The pic in the Spalding guide is undoubtedly him.

Archive · #13 10-30-2007, 08:07 PM

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Your photo of "Marsh Joe" could be almost 40 years older than his picture in my 1909 Reach Guide.
His last year as Yanks Mgr. was 1946.

On the other hand....you may be right about the E270 pix. Recently, we had a post where early cards
of Larry Doyle's picture was mixed up with Joe Doyle's pix (or visa-versa)

TED Z

Archive · #14 10-30-2007, 09:09 PM

Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Here is the 1912 Newark team, the guy on the Colgans sure doesn't look like McCarty.
-Rhett

Archive · #15 10-30-2007, 09:50 PM

Posted By: Dan Bretta

I'm no expert in facial recognition, but the ears just look like elephant ears on the guy on the Colgan's card whereas McCarthy has ears that are close to his head...course maybe that happens when you put on a lot of weight in the face..don't know, but it certainly could have been a mixup on the candy company, and they could have mixed him up with anyone's pic...didn't have to be McCarty.

I believe there has been an issue in trying to determine which Holmes is Ducky Holmes in the C46 set?

This is a shot of William 'Ducky' Holmes as Manager of the Lincoln club in 1906. He is center of the front row.

edited to add...I would appreciate any help if someone knows which Holmes this was. The Lincoln squad in 1906 was named the "Ducklings" and Holmes was referred to as "Ducky" in the local paper. Any help appreciated...thanks!

Archive · #16 10-30-2007, 10:08 PM

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

At the moment, I like to think that is Joe.

Some possibilities...

1- The Spalding Record I have got the first name wrong, Joe didn't play with Toledo.

2- Joe played with Toledo, but the photo is of an "Alex McCarthy", so the card should be of Joe, but the photo is wrong.

3- That really is Joe with Toledo at a young age.

And there could be other possibilities.

I'll dig out the box with my guides and records tomorrow, and see if any team photos help...

And Ted, I think that might be the old catcher, Howard Wakefield, who was with Cleveland in 05 and 07, and Washington in 1906. He was at Indianapolis, I think, after that, would have caught Bull Durham and Rube Marquard before they went up to Mr. McGraw's Giants. No relation to me that I know. In the back of my mind I think he might have managed a tiny bit in the minors, but I might be mixed up on that.

Archive · #17 10-30-2007, 10:25 PM

Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Dan, don't know if this is what you want to hear but neither of the 2 guys in the C46 set is James William "Ducky" Holmes (according to my records.) As both players in that set were pitchers.

C46 Set
#60 Holmes (Rochester) is... James (Jim) Scott Holmes
#79 Holmes (Newark) is... Robert Holmes

-Rhett Yeakley

Also...while we are talking about the C46 set this is for Don Fluckinger (if you happen to read this) the players names you are missing for the C46 list in SCD are as follows...
#24 Silton (H. Phil Sitton (mispelled Silton))
#51 Wheeler (George H. Wheeler)
#56 Wells (Robert G. Wells)
#59 Manser (James Vernon Manser)
#63 Graham (Stanley Graham)
#68 Pierce (George T. Pierce)
#69 Gaunt (Robert M. Gantt (mispelled Gaunt))
#85 Carlo (Anthony Carlo)

Archive · #18 10-30-2007, 10:28 PM

Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Frank, check out this website, it lists all players that have played with Toledo, only one guy fits the description...Joe McCarthy. The only possibible problem would be that Colgan's used the wrong pic (which they did at times (ie Kelley, Murray, Jordan, Ryan, etc)) but I need a photo of Alex to go off of.
-Rhett Yeakley

http://www.mudhens.com/info/all_time_roster.asp?view=2&type=L&letter=M

Archive · #19 10-30-2007, 10:42 PM

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Thanks Rhett. I was actually going to pursue one of those Holmes cards if it were indeed the Ducky Holmes that managed Lincoln in 1906 but I guess I don't have to now.

Archive · #20 10-31-2007, 07:48 AM

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

My records on "Marsh Joe" McCarthy do not indicate that he was ever involved with Newark of the International Lge. His
last Minor Lge. Mgr. position was with Louisville (1919-25)....then he became Mgr. of the Chicago Cubs in 1926.

In 1912 Joe was Player-Manager for the Wilkes-Barre team.....and, in 1913 he had his best batting season with them.....
hitting .325

TED Z

Archive · #21 10-31-2007, 08:14 AM

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

My #2 up there should have mentioned wrong photo and wrong team. The Colgans cards have more than their share of errors.

At any rate, Alex McCarthy was a shortstop at South Bend in the Central League from 1903 through 1912. McCarthy had attended Notre Dame, also at South Bend. Alex played shortstop, so the team's previous shortstop, Max Carey, was displaced out to the outfield. Alex was up with Pittsburg for 3 games in 1910, then 50 in 1911, and 111 in 1912. It was tough for him to get into the game, Honus Wagner was ahead of him. South Bend sold Alex McCarthy and Max Carey to Pittsburg for $4,000.

Alex is on the T200 Fatima, I don't have one. Maybe someone who does could post a scan of the card, or at least an enlarged section, Alex is on there, standing, second from left. He's on a brown border tobacco card (T207), but his face is a bit obscured, and that is a drawing, not a photo.

Here's a photo of Alex and Honus in street clothes...

http://tinyurl.com/24oqls>

If it doesn't load to page 63, move to there...

The ears look like that on the Colgans, but I just don't know about that nose.

Joe McCarthy was at Toledo from 1908 to 1911, and he was traded to Indianapolis during that 1911 season, since he is with both teams in the 1912 Spalding Record. Joe hit .268 in 98 games.

Seems to me that the card was supposed to be Joe. Although I wonder why Colgan's would not have had a card for Alex at Pittsburg... I wonder that because Colgans was based in Louisville, KY. About 1900 the Louisville baseball team folded, one of the Louisville owners also had a stake in the Pittsburg team, and several Louisville players moved to the Pittsburg team. So it seems natural that Louisville's baseball fans would maintain an interest in the Pittsburg team. Forget the interstates and airlines, river boats and trains made the trip from Louisville to Pittsburg managible.

So we need a good scan of Alex's T200 image posted. And in fooling with this I note that the T200 has "Pittsburgh", while the white and brown border tobacco cards have "Pittsburg"... That must have changed about 1911 or 1912.

Archive · #22 10-31-2007, 08:22 AM

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey Ted,

I think Joe McCarthy managed Earle Combs at Louisville. There aren't but 4 HOFers from Kentucky, gotta mention Combs if you're talking about McCarthy, Louisville, and the Yankees. Earle beat Joe to New York, Combs arrived in 1924, McCarthy in 1931. Earle played for Joe for 5 years, then coached for him a bit.

Archive · #23 10-31-2007, 09:13 AM

Posted By: Dan Bretta

It is definitely not Alex McCarthy on that Toledo Colgan's card. There are two types of people...those with unattached earlobes and those with attached earlobes. The Toledo McCarthy has unattached earlobes and Alex McCarthy has earlobes that are attached to the side of his head.

The mystery continues....

Archive · #24 10-31-2007, 09:37 AM

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Dan,
Here's another picture of Joe...

I don't know if the Toledo Tin Top is him or not, but I can tell you that there is one in the "Skydash Collection".

Be well Brian

Archive · #25 10-31-2007, 09:50 AM

Posted By: Millerhouse

Leon,

Do you still have my scan of the McCarthy Pinkerton with Toledo somewhere that it could be posted here? Might help.

Dan

Archive · #26 10-31-2007, 09:54 AM

Posted By: Ken W.

Hope this helps:

Archive · #27 10-31-2007, 10:08 AM

Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

From the look of this Fatima, I will change my vote from Joe to Alex.

Still not concrete but If I was a betting man, I would bet that is a picture of alex on the Colgen and not Joe.

edited for spelling

martyOgelvie
nyyankeecards.com

Archive · #28 10-31-2007, 10:32 AM

Posted By: Dan Bretta

It can't be Alex on the Colgan...physically impossible. Check the photo of Alex from the link that Frank posted...the ears are completely different.

Archive · #29 10-31-2007, 10:36 AM

Posted By: leon

Sorry I don't still have that Pinkerton scan. If you have a scan handy and can send it I will post it again....best regards

Archive · #30 10-31-2007, 11:05 AM

Posted By: brian p

I didn't realize there were only two types of people in the world. It makes you wonder how those poor people with unattached earlobes don't just fly away during heavy winds.

Brian

Archive · #31 10-31-2007, 12:10 PM

Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

I can't open those darn 'tinyrul' links to see the Alex picture.

The Fatima looks real close to the Colgen.

martyOgelvie
nyyankeecards.com

edit for spelling

Archive · #32 10-31-2007, 01:08 PM

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

You have a right to be proud of your "Kentucky Colonel", Earl Combs. He was a tremendous lead-off hitter for the Yankees
during those "Murderous Row" years. Perhaps, the best lead-off player the Yankees ever had. he has been compared with
Richie Ashburn in the category of great lead-off hitters.

Yes, he played for Louisville under the tutelage of Joe McCarthy. Combs batted .380 with 145 RBI's in 1923....the following
year he was in pin-stripes. In the '50s he coached for the Phillies....he is pictured in the 1954 Topps set.

TED Z

Archive · #33 10-31-2007, 01:13 PM

Posted By: Dan Bretta

For Teddy Z and Frank - Earle Combs

Archive · #34 10-31-2007, 01:23 PM

Posted By: barrysloate

For the 1927 Yanks Combs hit .356 with 231 hits, 23 triples, and 137 runs scored. That's a big part of the reason why they were the greatest team ever.

Archive · #35 10-31-2007, 08:09 PM

Posted By: Tim Newcomb

When I first posted this thread, I was actually thinking the T207 Alex McCarthy looked more like the Colgan's image than like Joe... but now I'm wondering: to me the T200 of Alex looks nothing like the Colgan's, so I'm changing my vote from Alex to Joe. Comparisons of the Colgan's to Joe's manager photos don't tell me anything-- a lot can change in thirty years!

At any rate it's clear that if there were a first name on the Colgan's, it would be Joe, since clearly he was with Toledo and Alex wasn't. So they thought they were picturing Joe, at least.

Anyway, the discussion has been fun to follow--

Archive · #36 10-31-2007, 08:25 PM

Posted By: Dan Bretta

I'm with you Tim in that it is still possible that it is indeed Joe pictured on the Colgan's card....One thing is for sure and that is that it is not Alex and that the intention of the card was certainly to picture Joe McCarthy.

Archive · #37 10-31-2007, 08:37 PM

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Joe McCarthy is the 1st Major League manager to achieve this ?

TED Z

Archive · #38 10-31-2007, 08:43 PM

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Total consciousness on his deathbed?

Archive · #39 10-31-2007, 10:16 PM

Posted By: Paul

I found this old photo of Joe McCarthy lying around. I had to compress the scan to post it, so I've also included a close up of Joe's face. To me, even in his early days, he looked a lot like the guy who managed the Yankees, and not much like the guy who is on the E270.

Archive · #40 10-31-2007, 10:24 PM

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Nice job Paul...I think we can say definitively that the Colgan's does not show Joe McCarthy.

Is it the scan you had just laying around or the Pinkerton?

Archive · #41 10-31-2007, 11:10 PM

Posted By: Paul

It was the Pinkerton. And it wasn't really just laying around.

Archive · #42 11-01-2007, 11:34 AM

Posted By: Chris Bland

Paul, you certainly have some awesome cards in your collection!

Archive · #43 11-02-2007, 07:09 PM

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Such a great thread... beautiful Pinkerton..

Joe McCarthy, 1st manager to not play in majors who was elected to HOF, I guessed via email, Ted says true but that isn't it....

1st manager to retire with a winning percentage over .600

1st manager to win 7 World Championships.

1st manager to win pennants in both the National League and the American League.

1st manager to win 4 consecutive World Championships.

If none of these are right, I'll guess some more. Frank.

Archive · #44 11-03-2007, 03:52 AM

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Now, there's quite a shotgun blast with a barrage of "Joe McCarthy 1st's"......

And, with all those answers....I declare you the Trivia King of this day.

The answer I had in mind was....1st to win Pennants in both Leagues (CUBS and YANKEES).

Also, I knew Joe won 4 consecutive AL Pennants, but I wasn't sure about the World Series.

Your buddy....John McGraw was the 1st to win 4 consecutive NL pennants (1921-24)........
but, split the World Series events.

Great response, Frank

TED Z

asoriano · #45 12-09-2023, 09:31 PM

Reviving this discussion as I've gone down a total rabbit hole trying to research the McCarthy (Toledo) card in the Colgan's Chips set.

Now, the burning question is: Is it Joe? Or perhaps Alex? Or is it someone entirely different?

rhettyeakley · #46 12-09-2023, 10:41 PM

It is supposed to be Joe McCarthy. He was the player with that team.

rhettyeakley · #47 12-09-2023, 10:49 PM

Colgan’s made mistakes though. The card intended to depict Joe Kelley (Toronto) instead shows John Kelly who was with Newark.

My favorite Colgan’s “screw up” was the E254 card of Ryan, St Paul. It was intended to depict Jack “Gulfport” Ryan who played with St Paul in 1910…instead they used a nearly decade old image of Jimmy Ryan (who was in N172 Old Judge set) and the evidence is that it is the same image used on Jimmy Ryan’s E104 Breisch-Williams card.

h2oya311 · #48 12-11-2023, 12:19 PM

I thought this was put to bed with Ted Z’s post of the 1909 Newark team from his Reach Guide. The link to that picture appears to be broken.

I’d love to know whether the Colgan’s Chip does, in fact, picture Joe McCarthy or somebody else, regardless of whether it was the intent of the Colgan’s Chip manufacturers to show Joe. Here’s his Pinkerton Cabinet, which doesn’t help at all…but happy to show it off:

And I’ve got the Colgan's Chip too, just in case:

Leon · #49 12-15-2023, 08:59 AM

No idea of the answer to this, long ago, question (apparently John Kelly) but that is a cool action pose Pinkerton!

Quote:

Originally Posted by h2oya311

I thought this was put to bed with Ted Z’s post of the 1909 Newark team from his Reach Guide. The link to that picture appears to be broken.

I’d love to know whether the Colgan’s Chip does, in fact, picture Joe McCarthy or somebody else, regardless of whether it was the intent of the Colgan’s Chip manufacturers to show Joe. Here’s his Pinkerton Cabinet, which doesn’t help at all…but happy to show it off:

And I’ve got the Colgan's Chip too, just in case:

The Nasty Nati · #50 11-22-2024, 08:06 PM

My two cents. I think it's definitely supposed to be Joe McCarthy, but I don't think the picture is him.

To me, the big giveaway is the player depicted on the Colgan's Chips clearly has light-colored eyes, either blue or green. But if you look at photos of Joe McCarthy, you will see that he had dark eyes, dark brown.

Also, Joe McCarthy had a pointed, downward-turned nose. The player on the Colgan's Chips does not.

Finally, McCarthy had rather thin lips, whereas the player pictured has fuller lips (granted, you lose that as you age).

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