1916-1920 Date for "Big Head" Strip Cards

[Matt]

OK, here's a project for the board. SCD lists the W-UNC "Big Head" strip cards as being somewhere in the 1916-1920 range, but couldn't narrow it down further. Based on the players included, and the images on the cards (e.g. a few have team emblems) can we get a more accurate year? The SCD is possibly incomplete, so if you have any information to share that might be helpful, it would be appreciated.

Here are some of Leon's for reference:

[Matt]

I humbly submit for your consideration, my findings for the issue date of these strip cards. I understand that this topic may be a bit controversial since many RC collectors use the "1916-1920" dating to claim a 1916 rookie of a player, but please read with an open mind, as if you were coming to figure the date of this issue without any preconceived notions.

First a few words of clarification - when SCD lists these as "1916-1920" it is not because they were issued throughout that period, like the "1902-1911" designation on W600s. It is because they couldn't narrow the date based on playing careers of players included in the set. There is no evidence I know of, to suggest these were issued at more then one time.

In dating sets where no date is specified, we always assume the sets were issued at one time, unless player & team designations make that impossible. Otherwise, we would date all issues as a huge range starting from when the first included player started playing to when the last included player stopped playing. e.g. how do we know E96s were issued in 1910 and not over a series of years from 1905-1915 (or whatever the correct years are)? Again, the answer is, we always go with the assumption of a set issued at one time and find the time that all of the player/team combinations fit (1910 for the E96 issue). This is nothing new - just important to clarify before we move on.

With that in mind, we must consider who was included in this 20 card issue. With only 20 cards, the manufacturers certainly would want players who were well known. Therefore, the list of players included in the issue provides a great indication of when these cards were issued. Specifically:

Leon Cadore - he made only 7 appearance in 1915 where he racked up an 0-2 record and a 5.57 ERA. The following season he made only one appearance. As such, it's doubtful these were issued in 1916 or 1917 (the years following those paltry seasons).

Joe Judge - he played in only 12 games in 1915, again pointing to the 1916 issue date being doubtful.

Sam Rice - the future HOFer played in only 4 games in 1915, and only 1/3 of a season in 1916, again, pointing towards 1918 as being the earliest possible issue date.

Ping Bodie - after batting .229 during the 1914 season (and an argument with his manager) Bodie was sent down to the minors, and wasn't recalled until the 1917 season. It seems impossible they would pick him as one of the 20 players to issue, if the set was issued in 1916 or 1917 and the earliest this issue would include him is 1918.

As such, I think we can narrow down the issue to 1918 at the earliest and therefore suggest the issue be dated 1918-1920.

Interestingly, all 4 of those players had wonderful years in 1917. In 264 innings over 37 games, Cadore had a 2.45 ERA. Judge batted .285 (65 points above his 1916 average!) in 393 ABs and Rice batted .302 in 586 ABs. In 557 ABs, Bodie batted .291 and was 3rd in the AL in HRs.

[brianp-beme]

Matt--great research topic. I will check things out and see if I can add anything more to help narrow down the time frame.

Brian

[rhettyeakley]

Matt, good topic. Unfortunately the players aren't too much of a help.

I think the Bodie situation (having not played in the majors since 1914 and then again in 1917) and Cadore being such a miniscule part of the team in 1915 & 1916 I think it is pretty safe to eliminate the 1916 date from them. This would make them 1917 at the earliest. 1917 is still on the table though as it may have been made midway during that season as some of these guys were enjoying a good year.

It is hard to see the teams on the chests of the players that include them (which could be a clue if a player changed teams at any point during the span).

If I were a betting man the set probably dates to 1918-1922 or so.

-Rhett

Edited to add: There is nothing magic about the 1920 date either (as Mark says) they very well could be from after 1920.

[rhettyeakley]

Larry Doyle's last year in the majors was 1920, so I doubt these were made too long after that (although he was a very popular player.) They certainly could be from as late as 1921 but I doubt they are later than 1922.
-Rhett

Edited to add: Matt beat me with the Doyle info.

[rhettyeakley]

I have also found a handful of these along with some W520, W522, and a few W516-1's in a vintage collection as well--so the 1920 or so date is probably a bit more accurate.

[nolemmings]

Cadore is probably your best bet in helping to pin it down further, but questions remain. Although your rationale is sound, keep in mind that Joe Judge appears in the m101 sets from 1916 and that both Bodie and Rice appear in the 1917 E135 sets, so someone thought to include them in those earlier years when they were as yet unproven. Granted, one would think a twenty card set would focus on established stars, but other small sets have included some lesser lights as well. If Konetchy is supposed to be depicted in a Brooklyn uniform, he did not join that team until 1919.

Incidentally, in looking at the scans, it seems to me that the cards of Cadore and Bodie are mixed up for one another. Cadore is shown wearing a "C" when he never played for such a team (except a one-game stint for the Chisox in 1923), instead pitching for Brooklyn, and Bodie is shown wearing a "B" when he in fact was playing for Cincinnati and never played for a team beginning with "B". Also, the pose of Cadore is as a hitter when he was a pitcher and Bodie was considered a bit of a slugger, and, while cartoonish, the face on the Cadore card bears some resemblance to Bodie, IMO.

[oaks1912]

Although I have not specifically researched the players / team affiliations in this set, I do have one experience dealing with them from 'outside the hobby'. Nearly 20 years ago, I was contacted by a lady in San Francisco, who was in the process of settling her father's estate. Among the estate, were thousands of baseball cards and other memorabilia. Her father was raised in the Washington / Baltimore area , and from the surviving artifacts, he collected primarily from 1920-1925. Included in the collection were numerous strip card series including W-514, 516, 519, 520 and what are now referred to as 'Big Heads'. The condition of the cards was all over the map, along with the player / set distribution. Generally speaking the 514, 516 & 519 cards exhibited more handling. THe 520 and Big Heads had the least amount of handling. Based on this observation, and comparing it with the consistency of other similar finds, the lesser condition cards were likely the 'older' ones for this kid, and the nicer conditioned card were acquired later. By 1922, the original collector advanced to saving Senators scorecards and tickets, and there did not appear to be any cards collected by him from this time on. Its always possible that these cards were gifted to him , or otherwise acquired at a later time, but the various series of cards were well blended together. I would think that a 1921 or 1922 issue date would be more likely based on the above factors, and I would have a hard time accepting a pre 1920 date of issue, at least as far as the specific cards that I purchased in this single collection. . With strip cards / anonymous issues it is very possible that multi-year and multiple methods of distribution were utilized by various jobbers or retailers, depending on their individual needs, or regions represented. With strip cards, it will be challenging to completely answer most aspects of their existence. Hope this helps...

[Matt]

Mark - great information. I believe the original date range of 1916-1920 is based on when all the players depicted were playing, (Doyle being the first to exit after the 1920 season). That being the case, 1921 is probably the more correct end date as players from 1920 would be on cards produced in 1921.

So, we have 1918-1921 now and your anecdotal evidence leads you to believe 1921.

As an aside, I don't have an issue with changing "established" years for these, as it seems the way the years were previously established was by doing a quick run down of start-playing and end-playing dates of everyone combined and narrowing the window accordingly. It seems clear to me that such a quick & dirty method missed Bodie's hiatus (as well as the lack of PT for some of the players in those years) and therefore mistakenly put the possible issue date starting at 1916.

[DanP]

I spent a couple of hours researching some of the players in the set.

I believe that it is impossible to accurately determine the year of issue by looking at the cards. The biggest reason is the drawings of the players are not accurate enough.

However, based on the players socks I would guess that these cards were issued in 1919 (see below). I don't believe they were issued prior to 1917 based on the information below regarding Milan and Judge.

I believe that the starting date range of 1916 is based on one card: Home Run Baker. He joined the Yankees in 1916 (from Phil) and his uniform clearly has N. Y. A. on his chest. If you looked at his socks it matches the 1919 home uniforms (the previous years the Yankees had solid socks).

You would think the Ed Konetchy would help nail down the exact year of issue. However, the only possible clue is his socks. They don't exactly match any of the 3 possible teams. If I were to guess I would say they were from the 1918-21 Brooklyn uniform (their uniform did not change from 1918-21).

Even though Babe Ruth didn't change teams I believe the 1919 or 1921 uniforms (socks) are the closet match to his card. They are 2 colors, although not the same colors. The other years the Yankees socks are solid.

Joe Judge and Zeb Milan were with Washington during the entire period in question. Both of their socks on their cards appear to be 3 "stripes".(although not in the same order) Washington started with 3 stripes in 1917 and stayed with them through 1920.

I'll keep looking!

Dan

[familytoad]

Great thread guys..I mean a GREAT thread!, While I don't have anything to offer but to say that my only card from this set is Eddy Konetchy, and some agreement that the range of 1916-1920 could probably be slid forward a year, maybe two...just keep it coming.

Less Noize, more Socks

[ethicsprof]

Matt et al,
i absolutely love this thread.
great detective work that i must incubate for a bit.

thanks,

best,
barry

[nolemmings]

The more I look at them,the more I believe that the card supposedly depicting Eddy Konetchy is actually Home Run Baker. First, although hardly conclusive, the image bears some resemblance to Baker, and none to Konetchy. Second, that might explain why there is a Y on the uniform, as Baker played for the Yanks, and Konetchy never played for New York. Third, the player is batting left-handed, as did Baker, while Konetchy was a righty. Fourth,the card of Baker looks absolutely nothing like him,although I can't think of anyone he resembles right now. Fifth, I still believe that Cadore and Bodie are juxtaposed--if true, there is precedent for misidentifying the player intended to be depicted.

If I am right, then who is supposed to be on the card claiming to be Baker?

[Clutch-Hitter]

The fact that so many of these guys started in 1915, even Ruth because his 1914 season was brief, is quite a coincidence, if it is a coincidence. There was also some changing of teams going on with some of the guys, including Baker to NYA. Baker's jersey is the only Jersey that includes the "A" designation, with the others only noting the city abbreviation. Johnson and Cobb, well established in pro baseball, were correctly labeled with their respective teams.

Having had major back surgery on the 20th (from 20 years of baseball) and no work for at least another month, I have three word documents going so far and will post the other two shortly, but let me know what you think about this in the meantime. BTW, the letters on the left portion of the chest are team names by city. Walter Johnson has the "W" and Cobb has the "D." Therefore, the letters on Bodie and Cadore were likely confused as someone said, unless they were all printed at different times maybe (?). I know far, far less than you guys do, but I think these were from pre-1920, but more on that soon.



Here are the teams:

Boston Red Sox
• Babe Ruth 1914-1919 (RC) limited play in 1914
• Carl Mays 1915-1919 (RC)
• Schang 1918-1920

Washington Senators
• Walter Johnson 1907-1927 (“W” on chest)
• Joe Judge 1915-1932 (RC)
• Clyde Milan 1907-1922
• Sam Rice 1915-1933 (RC)(Pitcher 1915-1916)

Detroit Tigers
• Ty Cobb (Has a “D” on his chest)

New York Yankees
• Frank Baker 1916-1922 (NYA on chest) why not just NY, because of recent change?
• Babe Ruth 1920-1934
• Ping Bodie 1918-1921 (“B” on chest)
• Schang 1921-1925

Cleveland Indians
• Jim Bagby 1916-1922 (only 17 IP with Reds in 1912)

New York Giants
• David Bancroft 1920-1923
• Larry Doyle 1915-1916 and 1918-1920

Brooklyn Robbins
• Leon Cadore 1915-1922 (RC) (“C” on chest)

Boston Braves
• Konetchy 1916-1918 (new team starting 1916)

Philadelphia Phillies
• David Bancroft 1915-1920 (RC)

Philadelphia A’s
• Ping Bodie 1917
• Schang 1913-1917

Chicago Cubs
• Larry Doyle 1916-1917 (Some kind of change in 1916)

Chicago White Sox
• Ray Schalk 1912-1928

Cincinnati Reds
• Heine Groh 1914-1921

St Louis Cardinals
• R. Hornsby 1915-1926 (RC)

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Clutch-Hitter

The fact that so many of these guys started in 1915, even Ruth because his 1914 season was brief, is quite a coincidence, if it is a coincidence.

You're going to need to be more clear about what you're implying here. Is it your theory that because they were unknown rookies playing in less then 10 games in 1915 & 1916, someone decided to use them specifically on the cards?

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

The more I look at them,the more I believe that the card supposedly depicting Eddy Konetchy is actually Home Run Baker. First, although hardly conclusive, the image bears some resemblance to Baker, and none to Konetchy. Second, that might explain why there is a Y on the uniform, as Baker played for the Yanks, and Konetchy never played for New York. Third, the player is batting left-handed, as did Baker, while Konetchy was a righty. Fourth,the card of Baker looks absolutely nothing like him,although I can't think of anyone he resembles right now. Fifth, I still believe that Cadore and Bodie are juxtaposed--if true, there is precedent for misidentifying the player intended to be depicted.

If I am right, then who is supposed to be on the card claiming to be Baker?

Interesting that they both changed teams between '15 and '16.........

[Clutch-Hitter]

[nolemmings]

Who is that you have matched up with Baker?

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Who is that you have matched up with Baker?

George Burns!!! Does he look right to you??

[nolemmings]

Not sure, the body build is closer to Konetchy, but of course there are some exagerrated builds in this set.

[Clutch-Hitter]

[Clutch-Hitter]

"SL" on right chest denotes St Louis


Follow through was nailed by the artist, no need for a comparison




Todd, you're very observant

[Clutch-Hitter]

Who is Zeb Milan?

Clyde's nickname was "Deerfoot."

Clyde's brother's (Horace Robert Milan) nickname was unspecified. He only played 1915 and 1917 for the Senators with the following players from the set: Johnston (if Walter Johnson), Clyde, Joe Judge, Sam Rice......

[nolemmings]

Clyde was also known as Zeb:

http://bioproj.sabr.org/bioproj.cfm?...=9624&bid=1783

http://books.google.com/books?id=0ca...0milan&f=false

[Clutch-Hitter]

OK thanks. Deerfoot certainly doesn't roll off the tongue.........

[Clutch-Hitter]

Year: 1919

Target: New York Yankee and New York Giant fans

Origin: New York

Edited to say: We need a better image of Ruth, but I'm confident it won't affect the previously stated year, but maybe slightly, with an easy adjustment. New York will not change, and stating that was the origin may have been off, but if they didn't originate in New York, they were manufactured elsewhere and shipped to New York, which was where the target audience was located. Distribution = New York

[Clutch-Hitter]

Edited to say, if it wasn't for Bodie, the year could be earlier.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Cards with the + Symbol on the Borders:

Cards with the “+” symbol

1. Sisler
2. Baker
3. Bancroft
4. Schalk
5. Judge
6. Burns
7. Milan
8. Schang
9. Bodie

Card Without the “+” Symbol:

1. Cadore
2. Hornsby
3. Rice
4. Mays
5. Konetchy
6. Groh
7. Bagby
8. Johnson
9. Cobb
10. Ruth
11. Doyle

Links:

Johnson Link
• http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...1034&lot_qual=

Cobb Link
• http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...1035&lot_qual=

Ruth Link
• http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...1036&lot_qual=

Hornsby Link
• http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...1030&lot_qual=

Rice/Bancroft Link
• http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...1032&lot_qual=

Sisler, Baker, Schalk, Hornsby
• http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...1031&lot_qual=

Others
• http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...1033&lot_qual=

Johnson, Ruth, and Cobb have very faint pin stripes, nothing like the New Yorkers.

Players located on mis-labeled cards thus far:

1. Konetchy on Baker's Card
2. Baker on Konetchy's Card ("Y" indicates an attempt at correction?)
3. Judge on Cadore's card
   And how could I forget, Sisler is on Judge's card!

The players not noted in this list and the previous "correct" list have not been identified yet, IMO

[Clutch-Hitter]

RH pitcher, Leon Cadore:



Feel free to disagree at anytime........if anybody is reading this............

[Clutch-Hitter]

Veteran second baseman, Laughing Larry Doyle, depicted in an adoring fashion, has his head tilted back laughing, with eyes closed, as he prepares to throw with his correct arm:

[Clutch-Hitter]

The Sisler card does have a cleft after all, and Cadore was very plain looking without anything resembling a cleft, who is on Sisler's card, I don't know:



Babe Ruth literally looks like a baby in the face and is batting right handed.

Larry Doyle throws left handed on the card and looks like nobody.

This set was messed up royally!!!!

1919-20, but no later and no sooner

[Leon]

Greg- I have always been intrigued with the Big Head strip set. I doubt I would have gone into the detail you did, so it's appreciated. I have exactly enough energy to read about what you examined in depth. Thanks again ....btw, I only need Cobb and Ruth to complete my set (shameless plug)

[Clutch-Hitter]

Thanks Leon,

I'm literally sitting in a chair 24/7 recuperating from surgery,so it was great to have something like that to do, please let me know if something similar can be done.

...........I should not have referred to the strip card sets as chaos. They are not at all chaos in that they embrace the adoring qualities of the players as seen by the fans............I love 'em but got frustrated with not figuring Doyle out..............

Seriously, I was trying to figure Ruth out, even saved him for last but ended up looking at him before Doyle, when I noticed my seven month old girl sitting in the floor next to me smiling, and I realized immediately what the artist intended for Babe, and it was very cool:

My daughter, Ruth Elizabeth, along with Babe(Y) Ruth: