Non Big Three Grading Companies in 2024

[parkplace33]

In the last few years, I have read a lot about new grading companies starting and getting into the game. These are all non big three (PSA, SGC, Beckett) companies.

Specifically for prewar/post war cards, have any of companies made inroads into vintage? From my eye, no, but I want other members take. I haven’t seen any online, in auctions, eBay, or at card shows.

I would love another option for grading, especially maybe one with using AI. Maybe some trends will change in 2024.

[Johnny630]

I think PWCC is getting some done by that guy who puts those little diamond stickers on Cards to say whether raw cards are authentic or not.

I wonder if any other auction houses will come up with their grading services?

[ClementeFanOh]

Drew- I just bought an HGA (Hybrid Grade Approach) graded 1977 Topps
Paul Molitor rookie at a show last week. A dealer there other than the one
I bought the Molitor from, had for sale approximately 30 HGA graded cards
as well. I like the Molitor and think they got it exactly right at 7.5. This
company may be the droid you are seeking

I have also owned a couple CSG graded cards and transacted them with
other collectors, and I agreed with the grades on those cards. Speaking
exclusively about grading accuracy, the sample size I've seen is no worse
than PSA's accuracy, and is likely better (although that's not a high bar
to climb).

These are the only 2 I've experimented with in the past year. They clearly
lack the popularity of the Big 3 up to this point; however, I think the same
logic with their cards applies to that of dealing with the Big 3- buy the card,
not the holder.

Trent King

[raulus]

Definitely see plenty of vintage CSG out there. Although admittedly it tends to be postwar midgrade stuff. I suspect that most submitters haven’t really warmed up to the idea of high grade and high value pieces in CSG holders, aside from that one time a 311 Mantle was graded by CSG, and even then there was a whole lot of guessing that it might have been the CSG owners who were trying to promote their brand.

[notfast]

Id 100% rather have CSG vintage than BVG/BGS at this point. I think this year we see CSG pass Beckett into the top 3.

[Svabinsky78]

CSG does have the nicest slabs and the vintage cards in CSG slabs I do own, I feel have been properly graded. CSG though (now CGC) has mainly a niche in Pokemon and comic cards. For sports cards, I've mostly seen CSG,CGC associated with modern,/ultra modern, not so much vintage.

I do personally like BVG, but I know that I am in the minority. The BVG slabbed cards I own are properly graded, in some cases undergraded IMO, and I like the feel of the slabs. For some reasons beyond my comprehension, Beckett has turned into a leper.

[swarmee]

CSG/CGC got a lot of vintage submissions when COMC opened up bulk grading submissions to them, but then they all but dried up when COMC started offering PSA grading submissions a few months later.
However, I've been pleased with my submissions to CSG, and hope they add some larger sized holders soon.

[FromVAtoLA]

Why would you love another option? Cost? A service that other three aren't offering? Something else? Interested to know.

Originally Posted by parkplace33

I would love another option for grading, especially maybe one with using AI.

[Leon]

I think the CGC (formerly CSG) larger holders will be a bit of a game changer, for vintage, when they start shipping. Hopefully that will be in the next 30-60 days.
All of my submissions go to them already and I can't wait for those holders. They might have to hire more graders!
(note the flip wording...very cool)

Originally Posted by swarmee

CSG/CGC got a lot of vintage submissions when COMC opened up bulk grading submissions to them, but then they all but dried up when COMC started offering PSA grading submissions a few months later.
However, I've been pleased with my submissions to CSG, and hope they add some larger sized holders soon.

[ClementeFanOh]

From VAtoLA- I'm a little surprised to read your question. There's been
commentary worthy of War and Peace on this venue, in regard to viable
options to the Big 3 graders. The very shortest version is that a worthy
4th (or 5th) could provide competition in the industry that ultimately
benefits the consumer, by forcing the others to do better. That's the hope.

Trent King

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by notfast

Id 100% rather have CSG vintage than BVG/BGS at this point. I think this year we see CSG pass Beckett into the top 3.

Yep - Totally Agree

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by FromVAtoLA

Why would you love another option? Cost? A service that other three aren't offering? Something else? Interested to know.

I like competition, especially in this part of card collecting. I also think that AI can be used moreso than it is now.

Exciting to see what may come out this year.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think the CGC (formerly CSG) larger holders will be a bit of a game changer, for vintage, when they start shipping. Hopefully that will be in the next 30-60 days.
All of my submissions go to them already and I can't wait for those holders. They might have to hire more graders!
(note the flip wording...very cool)

CGC must be doing well. They have a thirteen digit number on the flip. One would think that they haven’t graded a billion cards yet, but I could be wrong.

[FromVAtoLA]

I was asking because there are numerous other grading companies - HGA, KSA, ISA, TAG, GMG, GMA, WCG, MGS, DSG, PGS, RCG, MNT, PGI, FCG, Ace, Arena Club, etc, etc. Several of them already use (or claim to use) AI. Why haven’t any of these moved into the top tier?
I’m also asking because as vintage collectors we’re really the tail attempting to wag the dog. Take a look at the most recent month of grading data. https://www.gemrate.com/january-2024-recap. If you’re trying to start or grow a competitor to PSA you would really want to focus on TCG/Pokemon and ultra-modern sports. Pre-war vintage is a complete afterthought – it’s such a tiny part of the market.
What also jumps out is PSA’s shear, near-monopoly dominance and their ability to maintain growth for an extended period of time. For all of the complaints about being expensive, slow, lacking customer service, etc they’ve established themselves as the brand that will increase the value of your card the most. And let’s face it, that’s what really matters to the vast majority of people in the hobby. And that’s why that laundry list of other companies I’ve mentioned haven’t been more successful.
There are only a handful of true “collectors” who aren’t interested in the financial implications of the grading process (and, yes, many of those are vintage collectors - but we've already established that those are a very small amount of the collectors). And most folks in the hobby don’t really want a perfect grading process. All they want is a company that has a reputation for increasing the value of their card the most. A whole lot of people want to open packs or hunt for raw cards, send them in for grading, and know that they’re more likely to receive a slabbed card that is worth more when it arrives in the mail. PSA has developed that reputation. (And, yeah, SGC has a bit of that reputation in the vintage market as well.) And with that reputation comes a reputation for handing out grades that don’t meet your expectations (because that’s how they maintain that reputation.) If the grading process wasn’t so subjective – why would you even bother to send in the card?
As listed above there are dozens (maybe hundreds?) of card grading companies that all share a very similar business model. Is yet another company using some variant of that same business model really going to matter? Does doing the exact same thing faster, cheaper, with better customer service, or better technology really matter? If the company’s slab is unknown and doesn’t create a premium price for your card what percentage of collectors will use them? (To find out, feel free to send your cards in to any of the companies I listed above and then try to sell them for a premium and let me know how it turns out. I’m genuinely interested!)
Perhaps the issue needs to be looked at differently. Perhaps we’re just stuck with this until a better business model comes along. For instance, if you can develop an AI model where you can take a picture with your phone and get a grade why do you even need a PSA? Maybe you just need an app that costs $19.99 a month or $1 a scan or something….What if a card was graded and embedded with a sensor or invisible ink and the card grade changed as standards changed over time. In 2025 centering is important, so your card is a 7. But in 2035, edges and coloring is more important and when your card is scanned people see that it’s an 8. There’s no slab needed, the invisible ink is untraceable but never goes away. All you need is this iphone app that scans invisible ink for $9.99 a month.
Anyway, I’m interested in the specifics of these types of queries because I’m skeptical. Even if the Net54 card slab debuted tomorrow for $4, with a guaranteed 36-hour turn around, and Leon personally told you the status of your card every hour, would it really move into the top tier alongside PSA and SGC?

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

From VAtoLA- I'm a little surprised to read your question. There's been
commentary worthy of War and Peace on this venue, in regard to viable
options to the Big 3 graders. The very shortest version is that a worthy
4th (or 5th) could provide competition in the industry that ultimately
benefits the consumer, by forcing the others to do better. That's the hope.

Trent King

[ClementeFanOh]

Brian (FromVAtoLA)- I'll do my best to answer your questions succinctly.
I'm just a guy with an opinion, but you asked so here it goes:

1) You listed 16 TPGs and I haven't heard of 11 of them (in 40+ years
of collecting). Even the ones I have heard of (KSA, GMA, etc) haven't
made inroads despite years of trying. My point is that CSG (CGC) and
HGA seem to stand the best chance despite shorter life spans. I believe
HGA uses the AI angle, which specifically was part of the original post.

2) I think you'll find that a hefty number of folks here don't follow your
generalization about caring only for the cash value potential of slabbed
cards. Many comments I have read (and made) want another alternative
that is more accurate in accomplishing the actual job of grading cards,
as opposed to one whose results are more lucrative. You are correct in
that PSA has wormed it's way into the hobby so persistently, that it
covers the lucrative part.

Bottom line is that I want healthy competition from TPGs- I'd love to see
another viable option or two.

Trent King

[Flintboy]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

In the last few years, I have read a lot about new grading companies starting and getting into the game. These are all non big three (PSA, SGC, Beckett) companies.

Specifically for prewar/post war cards, have any of companies made inroads into vintage? From my eye, no, but I want other members take. I haven’t seen any online, in auctions, eBay, or at card shows.

I would love another option for grading, especially maybe one with using AI. Maybe some trends will change in 2024.

We need another grading company like we need another auction house.

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Drew- I just bought an HGA (Hybrid Grade Approach) graded 1977 Topps
Paul Molitor rookie at a show last week.

A 1977 Topps Molitor rookie? Now that I'd like to see!

[Snowman]

I'm a big fan of CGC holders for my PC. I'd probably send them everything if I never cared about resale value. I hope they continue to make more inroads into the vintage space (or just sports cards in general).

Although if SGC were to ever come out with a new holder that is similar to the CGC one, in addition to their current holder, giving collectors a choice, then I would probably never send another card to any other TPG ever again.

[Snowman]

As far as any "AI" grading options making its way to the vintage sector, I see that as highly unlikely. I work in AI, I'm a data scientist, and I'll spare you the details but grading vintage cards accurately through any sort of automation or "AI" process is much more difficult than grading ultra modern cards. I'm not convinced that "AI" will ever outperform human grading in this hobby. But I've been wrong before.

[Exhibitman]

Where CGC has a real opportunity is with sub-$500 cards. Sending cheaper cards to PSA is cost-prohibitive. Their prices eat up too much of the margin for resale.

One thing I tested about GCG is slab toughness and they pass. Opening those suckers is hard work. I had to cut off a lot of the top before I could get a screwdriver in the gap and crack it the rest of the way.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Snowman

As far as any "AI" grading options making its way to the vintage sector, I see that as highly unlikely. I work in AI, I'm a data scientist, and I'll spare you the details but grading vintage cards accurately through any sort of automation or "AI" process is much more difficult than grading ultra modern cards. I'm not convinced that "AI" will ever outperform human grading in this hobby. But I've been wrong before.

Curious if you think any of the big three are using it now. My guess is yes, but more so for identification and sizing of cards, not for grading.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Curious if you think any of the big three are using it now. My guess is yes, but more so for identification and sizing of cards, not for grading.

No, they're definitely not using it to grade cards. None of them. PSA is using it currently to detect counterfeit cards though.

[refz]

There will always be other tpg (non big 3) around to try and steal the competition away but will fade away eventually due to not enough support. I think they are a waste of time & $..

As far as CSG / CGC I do not own one slab, again, I do not love them nor hate them. I’m just not sold on their product and I feel I’m not alone here with this.

[NATCARD]

Now non big 2!

[Cory]

I prefer the look of SGC slabs (all t206 for me), but I actually prefer the smaller PSA slabs - it takes less room to store them (and ship them). I would prefer a grader that uses a smaller and easy to store slab - specifically for T206 cards - with a nice way to present them - maybe a 9 slot binder that holds the smaller slabs. Not sure what the smallest effective slab could be.

I don't use the registry - but lots of people seem to find value in that - so a registry would be a good addition.

I do use the PSA pop reports pretty frequently - those are really nice. SGC's is kind of a pain in the ass to use (or I don't know how to use it effectively). Likely none of the others are large enough to be useful, yet?

As far as other graders I think I have one BVG slab - seems too big, and another that I can't recall (MBA?) that's just a card saver with a holo tag on it. No experience with any others.

Given that I'm focused on the low end (A to 2) - with a goal of getting the best looking card at the cheapest price, I have lots of A's and 1's. So I would like a much more nuanced 1 grade (or maybe I don't because I buy the card not the grade?). Not sure how to do it, but I have 1's that look near mint (as least as much as a 115 year old card, can) because they have small paperloss or writing or some other small flaw on the back and I have 1's that look like they've been in a blender. Maybe PWCC's Eye appeal rating, solves this? Or a 1.1 to 1.9 rating - flaw x (paperloss, crease, mark, etc.) automatically gets you a category 1 rating, but beside that flaw the card presents as a 1-9. Or they could add a 0 grade - not altered, still a number grade, just a 0. Just spitballing.

All that being said - It's gonna be hard to supplant the leaders - there is definitely a winner take most effect here - but some of these other graders can maybe carve out profitable niches - for example you can't justify grading lower value cards when the cost to slab is $15 to $20 - so there's space for a low cost grader - just don't know how profitable it would be.