HOF Election - and the Elephant in the Room:

[clydepepper]

Announcement is 1/23/24 @ 6PM

Gary Sheffield just reached 75% (so far) on his 10th and final ballot - I know he was on the Mitchell Report as having a FedEx receipt to BALCO- will this be the tip of the iceberg...and they let everyone in?


https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?...GrU1OUsbz4WHyU

[jayshum]

In previous years, Sheffield has done worse on ballots that were not made public prior to the results being announced so it's likely he ends up under 75% again this year although closer than he has been before.

Sheffield's link to PEDs and BALCO is through working out with Bonds, and he has maintained he did not know he was being given a steroid to use and stopped using it when he found out. The link below is to an article by Jay Jaffe and has more information about it:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/jaws-and...ary-sheffield/

If Sheffield were to get in, I'm not sure if that would open the door for others who either failed tests or are suspected of having used much longer than Sheffield, but after this year, it would be up to the various veteran's committees (or whatever they are called these days) instead of the BBWAA.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Announcement is 1/23/24 @ 6PM

Gary Sheffield just reached 75% (so far) on his 10th and final ballot - I know he was on the Mitchell Report as having a FedEx receipt to BALCO- will this be the tip of the iceberg...and they let everyone in?


https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?...GrU1OUsbz4WHyU

Unfortunately, I don't think Sheffield opens the floodgates for the likes of Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, Ramirez, etc. The voters use all sorts of half-baked rationalizations to treat some PED users differently from others.

Sheffield was in the infamous Mitchell Report. Says he did it but didn't know what he was taking. Forgiven.

Ortiz tested positive during a 2003 pilot program, but details are scarce and he didn't test positive after 2004. Free pass.

Pudge Rodriguez was asked if he tested positive in 2003 and cryptically said, "Only God knows." Other players accused him of using steroids, but there was no hard evidence. Free pass.

Bagwell admitted to using andro before it was illegal, which means his career was certainly aided by PEDs. He never admitted to using or tested positive for PEDs while they were banned, but he played in that era and certainly looked the part. Free pass.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

Unfortunately, I don't think Sheffield opens the floodgates for the likes of Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, Ramirez, etc. The voters use all sorts of half-baked rationalizations to treat some PED users differently from others.

Sheffield was in the infamous Mitchell Report. Says he did it but didn't know what he was taking. Forgiven.

Ortiz tested positive during a 2003 pilot program, but details are scarce and he didn't test positive after 2004. Free pass.

Pudge Rodriguez was asked if he tested positive in 2003 and cryptically said, "Only God knows." Other players accused him of using steroids, but there was no hard evidence. Free pass.

Bagwell admitted to using andro before it was illegal, which means his career was certainly aided by PEDs. He never admitted to using or tested positive for PEDs while they were banned, but he played in that era and certainly looked the part. Free pass.

IMHO Pudge was one of the more obvious serious PED users. He went from looking like a mini Hulk to WAY WAY WAY smaller in one off season. If I remember correctly he said it was to save his knees so he could have a longer career.LOL

Honestly I believe PEDs should be manditory in baseball.

[ClementeFanOh]

Every time I read one of these threads, I cringe. It's a necessary topic, but
there's no way for a commenter to make certain statements without
someone going berserk over it- "everybody has used PEDs since the dawn of
time", "just let them all in", "player A should be in because player B is in",
etc. Now someone writes PEDs should be mandatory in MLB- hard pass (if
I have to explain why, I don't think there's much I can do to help).

MLB is now reaping what it has sown, and it's sad. It's difficult to feel good
about so many of these candidates, and some of the mild recent inductees
don't make it easier. I can say this for sure, I'm happy collecting vintage
players and not bothering with all these "question mark" guys. Before the
naysayers can get it out, I am NOT suggesting the players from yesteryear
are on the short list for sainthood. The problem is that many of the current
candidates are a graceless bunch, have been for many years, and the
process seems stuck in a continual tailspin- ugh.

Trent King

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Every time I read one of these threads, I cringe. It's a necessary topic, but
there's no way for a commenter to make certain statements without
someone going berserk over it- "everybody has used PEDs since the dawn of
time", "just let them all in", "player A should be in because player B is in",
etc. Now someone writes PEDs should be mandatory in MLB- hard pass (if
I have to explain why, I don't think there's much I can do to help).

MLB is now reaping what it has sown, and it's sad. It's difficult to feel good
about so many of these candidates, and some of the mild recent inductees
don't make it easier. I can say this for sure, I'm happy collecting vintage
players and not bothering with all these "question mark" guys. Before the
naysayers can get it out, I am NOT suggesting the players from yesteryear
are on the short list for sainthood. The problem is that many of the current
candidates are a graceless bunch, have been for many years, and the
process seems stuck in a continual tailspin- ugh.

Trent King

Well said Trent.
I would only add the shameful behavior imo of the current commissioner, owners, and media embracing gambling on baseball will only reap similar negative consequences as Bud Seligs weakness did.
That being said, if Bud Selig gets in the Hall while keeping Joe Jackson out, let's just say the bar has been lowered to a pretty low level.

[G1911]

It won’t open the floodgate if Sheffield manages to get in, because they don’t care at all about consistency. Rules for some and not for others. Ortiz was already elected and they were happy to ignore it for him. The steroid standard now seems to be about whether they like the candidate or not, which is in line with the other off-field centric elections of the last few years. Statistics don’t seem to be the most key aspect anymore to being in or out. Feels like we are in another era of selections being made for the wrong reasons, like the early 19th century player choices and the corruption of the Frisch committee era.

[ronniehatesjazz]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Well said Trent.
I would only add the shameful behavior imo of the current commissioner, owners, and media embracing gambling on baseball will only reap similar negative consequences as Bud Seligs weakness did.
That being said, if Bud Selig gets in the Hall while keeping Joe Jackson out, let's just say the bar has been lowered to a pretty low level.

I agree with the sentiment, and to me the biggest problem is that it's a large hall instead of a small one. If Bonds or one of the others isn't able to join Ruth, Mays, Mantle, etc. for breaking rules it's not such a big deal but when guys like Harold Baines are basically sent in his place it becomes a joke.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by ronniehatesjazz

I agree with the sentiment, and to me the biggest problem is that it's a large hall instead of a small one. If Bonds or one of the others isn't able to join Ruth, Mays, Mantle, etc. for breaking rules it's not such a big deal but when guys like Harold Baines are basically sent in his place it becomes a joke.

I think this is a very valid point. The Hall however, moved away from the "Small Hall" mentality, when the original Veterans Committee, started committing acts of cronyism and electing all of their buddies to the Hall of Fame.

I'm in the camp that Bonds, Clemens, Rodriguez, etc should be in the Hall. I'm not trying to convince anyone to believe in my opinion, but the more guys like Pudge Rodriguez, David Ortiz, and if this election goes his way, Gary Sheffield get in, it's harder to find justifiable reasons to keep those first three guys I mentioned, out.

[packs]

I don't think Sheffield has a real chance of getting elected. My guess is he tops out at 60%.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Seven

I think this is a very valid point. The Hall however, moved away from the "Small Hall" mentality, when the original Veterans Committee, started committing acts of cronyism and electing all of their buddies to the Hall of Fame.

I'm in the camp that Bonds, Clemens, Rodriguez, etc should be in the Hall. I'm not trying to convince anyone to believe in my opinion, but the more guys like Pudge Rodriguez, David Ortiz, and if this election goes his way, Gary Sheffield get in, it's harder to find justifiable reasons to keep those first three guys I mentioned, out.

Personally, I'm against any of the 'cheaters' getting in...putting them on the same level of honor as someone like Hank Aaron is just WRONG.

Remember, it's an honor, not a right.

If they ever get in, it should be posthumously...or at least after I'M DEAD!


.

[Touch'EmAll]

MLB has always wanted to send a very clear message that certain things are not acceptable.

Do they change their tune now, after over 100 years ? If they do change their tune, what impact will that have going forward ? And if they change their tune now, will a very clear message still be sent that certain things are not acceptable ?

Answers not needed, just food for thought.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Personally, I'm against any of the 'cheaters' getting in...putting them on the same level of honor as someone like Hank Aaron is just WRONG.

Remember, it's an honor, not a right.

If they ever get in, it should be posthumously...or at least after I'M DEAD!

.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, I totally understand where you're coming from, and I respect that opinion. I fully agree, it should be an honor, and not a right.

To be frank, however, the sanctity of the Hall has long since been violated in my opinion. Cheaters are already in, cheaters will continue to get in, long after we are all gone.

[Mike D.]

Sheffield is at 75% now, but no way he gets elected this year. I think the PED crowd eventually gets in, but it'll probably be in a certain order, with Bonds/Clemens first, then McGwire, then some of the other guys, with the "failed a test after testing" guys last or never.

On Ivan Rodriguez, I feel he was "punished" by at least part of the electorate. He got in his first year with 76% of the vote. If not for PED suspicions, that % would have been 90%+ (he's #3 all time among WAR for catchers).

Same for Bagwell, who took SEVEN turns on the ballot to get elected. Piazza? Four times.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think Sosa and Palmeiro will only get in on a very cold day in hell. I don't see anyone making their case.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think Sosa and Palmeiro will only get in on a very cold day in hell. I don't see anyone making their case.

I think Palmeiro would've had a better chance had he not openly lied and pointed at congress, that he didn't do steroids only for him to ping a positive test a few days later. Felt like a scene out of Curb Your Enthusiasm.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Personally, I'm against any of the 'cheaters' getting in...putting them on the same level of honor as someone like Hank Aaron is just WRONG.

Remember, it's an honor, not a right.

If they ever get in, it should be posthumously...or at least after I'M DEAD!


.

Originally Posted by Seven

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, I totally understand where you're coming from, and I respect that opinion. I fully agree, it should be an honor, and not a right.

To be frank, however, the sanctity of the Hall has long since been violated in my opinion. Cheaters are already in, cheaters will continue to get in, long after we are all gone.

But, this is how standards get eroded, one negative step at a time...viewing past errors as acceptable.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

But, this is how standards get eroded, one negative step at a time...viewing past errors as acceptable.

I'm not viewing the past errors as acceptable, I'm speaking about the way the situation is.

We can argue whether or not they are deserved candidates until the cows come home. The problem is, is that nothing will change what has already happened and will continue to happen. The point I'm making is that I wouldn't surprise me in 30-40 years if all these players who took PED's end up making it to Cooperstown.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Seven

I'm not viewing the past errors as acceptable, I'm speaking about the way the situation is.

We can argue whether or not they are deserved candidates until the cows come home. The problem is, is that nothing will change what has already happened and will continue to happen. The point I'm making is that I wouldn't surprise me in 30-40 years if all these players who took PED's end up making it to Cooperstown.

It already is full of PED users and cheaters. No need to wait.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by bnorth

It already is full of PED users and cheaters. No need to wait.

I was speaking to Bonds, Rodriguez, Clemens, etc.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Seven

I was speaking to Bonds, Rodriguez, Clemens, etc.

I get keeping A-Rod out. I don't get keeping Clemens and Bonds 2 out.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I get keeping A-Rod out. I don't get keeping Clemens and Bonds 2 out.

Bonds use resulted in him taking the All-Time Career Home Run Record away from Hank Aaron. And also the All-Time Single Season Home Run Record. For me, Bonds is a no-no! But as I’ve always said, once you let one in, let all in.

[Fred]

Interesting concept of posthumous election. Do they let them all die off and then start electing them? Or do they wait until they die off individually and then elect them? Would be interesting to see how electors classify Palmeiro after his indignant finger point at congress and denial (and then getting popped shortly thereafter). That was just over the top.

One PED user that's a little different from the rest is McGwire. At least he showed a little class and admitted it and owned what he did.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Fred

One PED user that's a little different from the rest is McGwire. At least he showed a little class and admitted it and owned what he did.

As I recall it, he was not there to talk about the past and refused to speak about anything in order to avoid either taking responsibility or getting indicted for perjury.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by G1911

As I recall it, he was not there to talk about the past and refused to speak about anything in order to avoid either taking responsibility or getting indicted for perjury.

Later on he admitted using PEDs. I think it was so he could get hired as a hitting coach.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

As I recall it, he was not there to talk about the past and refused to speak about anything in order to avoid either taking responsibility or getting indicted for perjury.

I cringe hard when Mark talks about PEDs. His more recent stuff is way worse than his silly congress BS.

Don't get me wrong if I am paying $12 for a cold hotdog and $18 for a warm beer and $100 for a not horrible seat someone better jack a 500 foot homerun for my viewing pleasure. PEDS should be mandatory for the greater good of the game.