Let's Re-Visit The Great Debate

[jingram058]

I pulled an old book from the shelf, entitled, "The World Series - A Complete Pictorial History", by John Devaney and Burt Goldblatt. For 1932, the caption is "The Babe Calls His Last Shot".

Zack Taylor: I saw the Babe call his shot

Zack Taylor was a catcher with Chicago, Brooklyn and Boston. At an Oldtimers' Game in St. Petersburg, Fla., three weeks before his death, he said: "They say the Babe didn't really call that home run but don't you believe it because I was sitting on the Cub bench and I saw it happen. Charley Root always denied it but what happened was this: Charley had a habit of turning around to touch the rosin bag after he'd thrown a strike, and he had his back turned to the Babe and he didn't see Babe point to the fence. There was a lot more bench jockeying in those days, you know, than there is today. I don't know why...maybe because the dugouts are farther apart. The Cubs were saying awful things to Babe. He'd called us cheapskates because we hadn't cut in Koenig and that was embarrassing to me because I roomed with Mark. Our bench was yelling just awful things, I don't even want to talk about them...about Babe's personal life. Anyway, he turned to us. He put up two fingers. Two strikes. Then he put up one finger, saying I got one left. And then he pointed to direct centerfield. He hit that pitch right into what must have been a 60-mile-an-hour wind coming off that lake and I don't know how he did it."

So, is this just an embellished memory, or did Zack Taylor really see what he says? Does it really even matter? Hitting a home run in a situation like that is crazy.

The attached grainy still photo is from Wikipedia. It shows Root with his back turned, and Ruth pointing, all as Zack Taylor said. The ball went some 440 feet, against a stiff wind off the lake.

[jingram058]

"What do you think of the nerve of that big monkey? Imagine the guy calling his shot and getting away with it." – Lou Gehrig

[BabyRuth]

From the photo evidene something obviously was happening that fateful day, and for me, it was the Babe calling his shot!!!
Every thread needs a card!!!

[Exhibitman]

Heckuva card.

i would like to think that Ruth called it. I have no idea. The footage I've seen is interesting but not definitive.

Ruth card:

[JollyElm]

The problem is there may or may not be enough context to the whole situation. Any still picture showing him pointing is compelling, however if you watch the small bits of video in existence, The Babe didn't stop what he was doing and point definitively and directly to the center field stands (as is always implied). His arm/hand was waving around seemingly pointing at the other team, and pretty significantly in my mind, it wasn't pointing 'high' enough to be majestically directing attention to way out in center field. (And yes, I want the 'called shot' to actually be true, but it's a tough sell, unfortunately.)

Check out this short video of the event:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...6FORM%3DHDRSC4

[Bigdaddy]

I had written Joe Sewell, HOFer and teammate of the Babe's on that 1932 WS team, a letter back in the late 1980s asking him if the Babe called his shot. Joe replied back that the Babe did indeed point to CF before his dinger.

Good enough for me.

If I can dig it out, I'll post a scan.

[Touch'EmAll]

We need good stuff to believe. The called shot is good stuff. I believe.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I had written Joe Sewell, HOFer and teammate of the Babe's on that 1932 WS team, a letter back in the late 1980s asking him if the Babe called his shot. Joe replied back that the Babe did indeed point to CF before his dinger.

With which finger

[raulus]

Does it matter anymore whether he did or didn’t actually do it?

It just seems like the myth and the legend has taken over the public consciousness to the point where whether it ever really happened is irrelevant.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In 1942, during the making of The Pride of the Yankees, Babe Herman (who was at that time a teammate of Root with the minor league Hollywood Stars) was on the movie set as a double for both Ruth (who played himself in most scenes) and Gary Cooper (who played Lou Gehrig). Herman re-introduced Root and Ruth on set and the following exchange (later recounted by Herman to baseball historian Donald Honig) took place:

Root: "You never pointed out to center field before you hit that ball off me, did you?"
Ruth: "I know I didn't, but it made a hell of a story, didn't it?"

[G1911]

Originally Posted by raulus

Does it matter anymore whether he did or didn’t actually do it?

It just seems like the myth and the legend has taken over the public consciousness to the point where whether it ever really happened is irrelevant.

The truth is always relevant to the subject, sir.

Whether a sports game is is another story…

Documentary evidence is ambiguous, witness testimony is not in accord with each other. It’s probably not true, the story told is too clean and perfectly polished, but it’s a good story and in character.

[brunswickreeves]

Could you imagine a duel signed Ruth / Root ball from that game? We can get close to the events of time through a piece of memorabilia or cards.

[jingram058]

Here is the Zack Taylor of the Cubs who stated he saw Ruth do it. He said this 3 weeks before he passed away. Basically a deathbed confession. I have more faith in first person, eyes on, rather than armchair analysis from decades afar

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8ao5sBj7xQ

[Yoda]

One thing is for sure: The Babe sure gave his hecklers in the Cubs dugout hell as he rounded the bases.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by G1911

The truth is always relevant to the subject, sir.

Whether a sports game is is another story…

Documentary evidence is ambiguous, witness testimony is not in accord with each other. It’s probably not true, the story told is too clean and perfectly polished, but it’s a good story and in character.

I get your point. And I certainly agree.

My point was that even if ironclad proof were to come out tomorrow that it absolutely didn’t happen, we would all (well, 99.99% of the population) quickly forget about said proof, and the legend would live on as it has these last several decades, in spite of the proof to the contrary.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

I get your point. And I certainly agree.

My point was that even if ironclad proof were to come out tomorrow that it absolutely didn’t happen, we would all (well, 99.99% of the population) quickly forget about said proof, and the legend would live on as it has these last several decades, in spite of the proof to the contrary.

I don't see why that would be. Much of the staying power of the Called Shot is its ambiguity and Ruth's own shifting story.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by raulus

I get your point. And I certainly agree.

My point was that even if ironclad proof were to come out tomorrow that it absolutely didn’t happen, we would all (well, 99.99% of the population) quickly forget about said proof, and the legend would live on as it has these last several decades, in spite of the proof to the contrary.

Never let ironclad proof get in the way of a narrative

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Never let ironclad proof get in the way of a narrative

Especially if you're running for.... oh wait never mind.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't see why that would be. Much of the staying power of the Called Shot is its ambiguity and Ruth's own shifting story.

I think you’re probably right, at least for a small subset of the population that includes people around here.

For the rest of the country/world, my sense is that the legend is already so well socialized that it has legs and will endure regardless of the facts. It’s just that ingrained.

[conor912]

“If I thought for one second he was calling his shot, I would have put the next pitch in his ear” - Charlie Root….and I believe him.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

I think you’re probably right, at least for a small subset of the population that includes people around here.

For the rest of the country/world, my sense is that the legend is already so well socialized that it has legs and will endure regardless of the facts. It’s just that ingrained.

Well you may be right, we see every day how people can just deny or ignore established facts.

[molenick]

I wonder if there is some analogy here to the Abner Doubleday legend. The assertion that he invented baseball was disputed by Henry Chadwick even before it was made public, questioned in print by William Henry Irwin as early as 1909, and essentially disproved by Robert Henderson and others leading up to the 1939 "centennial".

I would think anyone on this board and any more-than-casual baseball fan knows that Abner Doubleday did not invent baseball. But for the casual or non-baseball fan, I think many still consider Abner Doubleday as the inventor of baseball. They certainly know his name more than they do Cartwright or any of the other members of the Knickerbockers who some feel have more (or at least equal) claim to being baseball's "inventor" (Adams, Tucker, Wadsworth, and Wheaton).

I think even if we somehow disproved that Babe called his shot, the legend will continue to be accepted. Especially because it is true that he actually did hit a home run and did make some kind of gesture before doing so, whereas Doubleday had no connection to baseball at all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

On the basis of what evidence did the Mills commission conclude Doubleday was the inventor?

[packs]

I've always liked this Root album page and photo I picked up:

[molenick]

It is a long story best recounted elsewhere, but essentially it was from a letter the commission received from Abner Graves who was five in 1839 and who claimed to have seen Doubleday (who was in West Point at the time) modify town ball to what is now recognizable as baseball. I believe the commission added to Graves' claim some things that were not the letter (such as setting the distance between the bases). I believe Graves also sent them an old baseball purported to be from the game.

Graves was 71 when he wrote the letter which some claim may have led to "inaccurate memories" but as I get closer to that age, I would not like to think that I will all of a sudden lose my memory when I get there. But he was recollecting events from many years in his past. Apparently he made other false claims, such as being a member of the Pony Express in 1852 (it was started in 1860). And he was committed to a psychiatric hospital after shooting his wife.

I recommend David Block's Baseball Before We Knew It: A Search for the Roots of the Game, John Thorn's Baseball in the Garden of Eden: The Secret History of the Early Game and Peter Morris's But Didn't We Have Fun?: An informal History of Baseball's Pioneer Era, 1843-1870 for further reading on this and other related topics.

[Eric72]

EDITED OUT MY ORIGINAL POST.

Michael (the post directly above) beat me to it...and was much more informative.

[JollyElm]

And a card...

1932a.jpg

[molenick]

I don't recall how Burns addressed the Doubleday issue, and I didn't mean to start another "great debate", but the factuality of the letter was discredited well before the Burns documentary. Even the Hall of Fame (whose site was selected because of the connection to the story) acknowledges it is a myth.

I was just giving it as an example of a legend living on long past its refutation.

[BabyRuth]

The rivals meet again........................

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by molenick

I don't recall how Burns addressed the Doubleday issue, and I didn't mean to start another "great debate", but the factuality of the letter was discredited well before the Burns documentary. Even the Hall of Fame (whose site was selected because of the connection to the story) acknowledges it is a myth.

I was just giving it as an example of a legend living on long past its refutation.

After having finally visited Cooperstown, I can say with great authority () that I really am not a fan of the Doubleday narrative. I really wish the HOF was somewhere more accessible. Speaking as someone who was born, raised, and still lives in Montana, Cooperstown is in the middle of nowhere and not at all easy to access.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by molenick

I don't recall how Burns addressed the Doubleday issue, and I didn't mean to start another "great debate", but the factuality of the letter was discredited well before the Burns documentary. Even the Hall of Fame (whose site was selected because of the connection to the story) acknowledges it is a myth.

I was just giving it as an example of a legend living on long past its refutation.

Burns acknowledged, within the documentary, that the letter was not accurate. I was just trying to shed light on what may have colored the Mills Commission's opinion on the matter.

So, no great debate with me. We were saying the same thing. When I saw that you said it much better, I (more or less) deleted my post; it was redundant...and it was also redundant.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And we still have Doubleday Field.

[BabyRuth]

The rivals meet for a second time......................