The Top 10 Hoplites of the The Peloponnesian Wars

[frankbmd]

I hate to be regarded as a malcontent or contrarian and have enjoyed baseball since a very early age. However I find the continuing conversation on the site regarding who should or shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame, the ranking various subsets of dead baseball players, and the speculation about how many home runs Judge would hit in 1923 or how many Ruth would hit in 2023 a bit jejune (look it up). Everyone who participates in such threads disagrees with everyone else and very few disagreements are settled. It's like trying to get 100% on a final exam where there isn't a correct answer. On Net54 everyone isn't even graded on a curve (not a curveball by the way).

Granted, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but the relevance of everyone's opinion is sadly lacking. We rely on analytics that didn't exist 100 years ago. Let's face it, Ducky Medwick and Wahoo Crawford didn't have a WAR. They are rightly classified as prewar, but not preWAR. Statistics are wonderful and I love them, but I never forget the basic truth, Figures lie and liars figure.

So what's my point. The countless rating and ranking threads of old dead ballplayers could be replaced by the title of this thread. Maybe we should just speculate on the hammer price of a gem mint 2500 year old rookie Hoplite card.

[frankbmd]

From my hoplitodromos collection

hoplitodromos.jpg

first included in the 520 BC olympics.

Eat your heart out Goldin.

[autograf]

Your edibles may be losing their efficacy.......jus' sayin'

[G1911]

I must cast my vote for my main man, Thucydides, as the #1. I know there’s some hot takes on here:

1. Thucydides
2. Brasidas
3. Alcibiades
4. Pericles
5. Nicias
6. Cleon
7. Gylippus
8. Lysander
9. Antiochus
10. Mindarus

[BobC]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I hate to be regarded as a malcontent or contrarian and have enjoyed baseball since a very early age. However I find the continuing conversation on the site regarding who should or shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame, the ranking various subsets of dead baseball players, and the speculation about how many home runs Judge would hit in 1923 or how many Ruth would hit in 2023 a bit jejune (look it up). Everyone who participates in such threads disagrees with everyone else and very few disagreements are settled. It's like trying to get 100% on a final exam where there isn't a correct answer. On Net54 everyone isn't even graded on a curve (not a curveball by the way).

Granted, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but the relevance of everyone's opinion is sadly lacking. We rely on analytics that didn't exist 100 years ago. Let's face it, Ducky Medwick and Wahoo Crawford didn't have a WAR. They are rightly classified as prewar, but not preWAR. Statistics are wonderful and I love them, but I never forget the basic truth, Figures lie and liars figure.

So what's my point. The countless rating and ranking threads of old dead ballplayers could be replaced by the title of this thread. Maybe we should just speculate on the hammer price of a gem mint 2500 year old rookie Hoplite card.

Very astute point Frank! ++++

[raulus]

I mean…arguing with complete strangers about piffle is one of the primary reasons why Al Gore invented the internet.

So I say…let the debate rage. Rage on, my friends!

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by G1911

I must cast my vote for my main man, Thucydides, as the #1. I know there’s some hot takes on here:

1. Thucydides
2. Brasidas
3. Alcibiades
4. Pericles
5. Nicias
6. Cleon
7. Gylippus
8. Lysander
9. Antiochus
10. Mindarus

11. Xerxes

[G1911]

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

11. Xerxes

I think Persian Kings of Kings from before the war just can’t rack up enough Greek WAR to crack the top 10, but what a talent Xerxes I was.

[EddieP]

Originally Posted by G1911

I must cast my vote for my main man, Thucydides, as the #1. I know there’s some hot takes on here:

1. Thucydides
2. Brasidas
3. Alcibiades
4. Pericles
5. Nicias
6. Cleon
7. Gylippus
8. Lysander
9. Antiochus
10. Mindarus

I’d rank Pericles as #1 since he was the General. Granted Thucydides wrote about it but I would rank him somewhere near the middle. But how can you leave out Socrates?

“An earlier post considered the Melian massacre and the Athenian conduct of war during the Peloponnesian War (link). Since we know that Socrates served as an armored infantry soldier during that war (a hoplite), it is reasonable to ask whether Socrates would have carried out atrocious orders involving the execution of prisoners, enslavement of women and children, and other acts of retaliation and punishment against the enemies of Athens.
In particular, would Socrates the hoplite have obeyed the order to slaughter the innocent? Ancient historian Mark Anderson offers a detailed analysis of the known context of Athenian warfare and Socrates' military history, and concludes that Socrates did not express moral opposition to these acts of war (Mark Anderson, "Socrates as Hoplite"; link). Anderson argues at length that Socrates was a hoplite during exactly these kinds of campaigns of retaliation, and that he never expressed any moral objection to them. Against the arguments of Gregory Vlastos and other scholars of Athenian philosophy, Anderson argues that the historical record of Socrates’ military service is fairly clear, and it is evident that his participation was voluntary, courageous, extended, and supportive. Anderson argues on the basis of these facts that Socrates did not offer moral objections to this dimension of Athenian military strategy.“

https://understandingsociety.blogspo...s-hoplite.html

[Leon]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I hate to be regarded as a malcontent or contrarian and have enjoyed baseball since a very early age. However I find the continuing conversation on the site regarding who should or shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame, the ranking various subsets of dead baseball players, and the speculation about how many home runs Judge would hit in 1923 or how many Ruth would hit in 2023 a bit jejune (look it up). Everyone who participates in such threads disagrees with everyone else and very few disagreements are settled. It's like trying to get 100% on a final exam where there isn't a correct answer. On Net54 everyone isn't even graded on a curve (not a curveball by the way).

Granted, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but the relevance of everyone's opinion is sadly lacking. We rely on analytics that didn't exist 100 years ago. Let's face it, Ducky Medwick and Wahoo Crawford didn't have a WAR. They are rightly classified as prewar, but not preWAR. Statistics are wonderful and I love them, but I never forget the basic truth, Figures lie and liars figure.

So what's my point. The countless rating and ranking threads of old dead ballplayers could be replaced by the title of this thread. Maybe we should just speculate on the hammer price of a gem mint 2500 year old rookie Hoplite card.

Your observations are well received. I can't imagine anymore new Judge or whomever 2022 anything threads on the front page, at the current time. But it's some exciting baseball that can harken back to Ruth, Cobb, Matty etc...
To your point about countless ranking threads, I say poppycock!

We can always use more T206 threads!

[packs]

Athens had a prospect by the name of Testicles during the early part of the war. Everyone thought he might win rookie of the war but a groin injury took him out.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by EddieP

I’d rank Pericles as #1 since he was the General. Granted Thucydides wrote about it but I would rank him somewhere near the middle. But how can you leave out Socrates?

“An earlier post considered the Melian massacre and the Athenian conduct of war during the Peloponnesian War (link). Since we know that Socrates served as an armored infantry soldier during that war (a hoplite), it is reasonable to ask whether Socrates would have carried out atrocious orders involving the execution of prisoners, enslavement of women and children, and other acts of retaliation and punishment against the enemies of Athens.
In particular, would Socrates the hoplite have obeyed the order to slaughter the innocent? Ancient historian Mark Anderson offers a detailed analysis of the known context of Athenian warfare and Socrates' military history, and concludes that Socrates did not express moral opposition to these acts of war (Mark Anderson, "Socrates as Hoplite"; link). Anderson argues at length that Socrates was a hoplite during exactly these kinds of campaigns of retaliation, and that he never expressed any moral objection to them. Against the arguments of Gregory Vlastos and other scholars of Athenian philosophy, Anderson argues that the historical record of Socrates’ military service is fairly clear, and it is evident that his participation was voluntary, courageous, extended, and supportive. Anderson argues on the basis of these facts that Socrates did not offer moral objections to this dimension of Athenian military strategy.“

https://understandingsociety.blogspo...s-hoplite.html

This really comes down to a debate on how we value value. I ranked (totally didn’t just randomly jot the first 10 leaders of the war that came to me…. I would never do that!) them based upon their contributions to the war and only the war, not their broader contributions to humanity. If we’re ranking on lifetime net WAR, I would also put Socrates #1, with 365.36482847288483 points by my advanced math whose formula I cannot share for reasons.

My formula also shows that Socrates-Plato-Aristotle is the most valuable direct lineage teaching line in world history with a hair over 1,000 WAR.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I thought Thucydides was exiled for his military failures. Odd choice for #1.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by boneheadandrube

11. Xerxes

Originally Posted by G1911

I think Persian Kings of Kings from before the war just can’t rack up enough Greek WAR to crack the top 10, but what a talent Xerxes I was.

Neither a Spartan or an Athenian and certainly above the Hoplite pay grade, Xerxes was on the wrong side of the fence for this thread.

[MikeGarcia]

;; ..". Let's face it, Ducky Medwick and Wahoo Crawford didn't have a WAR."
.
I was looking for an excuse to show off my Ducky Medwick 1934 Gold Medal Wheaties Premiums anyway. :

..

.. they were only off by two years , and "Goudey" was a pretty good guess .; I mean hey , c'mon , what do you expect for only $28 in fees .

..

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Leon

Your observations are well received. I can't imagine anymore new Judge or whomever 2022 anything threads on the front page, at the current time. But it's some exciting baseball that can harken back to Ruth, Cobb, Matty etc...
To your point about countless ranking threads, I say poppycock!

We can always use more T206 threads!

I'll see your poppycock and raise you a falderol.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I'll see your poppycock and raise you a falderol.

Platinum?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I thought Thucydides was exiled for his military failures. Odd choice for #1.

He was scapegoated by the fake news.

[wolf441]

The JD Drew of ancient Greece...

[Golfcollector]

I am partial to Pyrgopolynices, or even Palastreo who was pretty fast in the ol coloseum days.

[Northviewcats]

Didn't have a card of a Hoplite. But perhaps a card of a 4th century BC Greek warship would suffice.

[JollyElm]

Never ever forget to honor the service staff!! For centuries, Greeks have told wonderful stories about the man known as 'Sid Spinach' of Delos, whose carts sold very affordable spanakopita to the Spartan forces, keeping them well fed and ready for battle.

[RCMcKenzie]

I have to say that I enjoy the baseball threads quite a bit more than this one.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by packs

Athens had a prospect by the name of Testicles during the early part of the war. Everyone thought he might win rookie of the war but a groin injury took him out.

It took a pair of brass one to post that.

I wonder how many people just skimmed right by and didn’t read it.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I wonder how many people just skimmed right by and didn’t read it.

I groined when I read it.

Brian

[Tom S.]

Originally Posted by packs

Athens had a prospect by the name of Testicles during the early part of the war. Everyone thought he might win rookie of the war but a groin injury took him out.

That's nuts!

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Statistics are wonderful and I love them, but I never forget the basic truth, Figures lie and liars figure.

Frank, long, long ago in an Accounting 101 class, I was taught that the basic truth is, "Figures don't lie, but liars can figure."

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Frank, long, long ago in an Accounting 101 class, I was taught that the basic truth is, "Figures don't lie, but liars can figure."

Or

Figures can lie when liars figure.

[RCFire82]

Jejune: naive, simplistic, and superficial.
Poppycock: nonsense.
Falderol: foolish talk.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by G1911

I must cast my vote for my main man, Thucydides, as the #1. I know there’s some hot takes on here:

1. Thucydides
2. Brasidas
3. Alcibiades
4. Pericles
5. Nicias
6. Cleon
7. Gylippus
8. Lysander
9. Antiochus
10. Mindarus

As part of my senior thesis class 'Works of Great Historians' we had to read part of "History of the Peloponnesian War" by Thucydides. Fortunately, it was the gravy class for history majors and you did not have to write a thesis. Show up for the class and participate in the discussions.

[ALBB]

I find this quite funny and amusing !

[gonzo]

No love for Xenophon?
I know he only came in at the very end of the Dead Greek Era, and he did his best work over in the Persian Central League, but he should be in the Hall at least as an Ambassador of the Phalanx.

[obiwan1129]

Originally Posted by gonzo

No love for Xenophon?
I know he only came in at the very end of the Dead Greek Era, and he did his best work over in the Persian Central League, but he should be in the Hall at least as an Ambassador of the Phalanx.

No mention of Cyrus either?

Pfffttt

[steve B]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Never ever forget to honor the service staff!! For centuries, Greeks have told wonderful stories about the man known as 'Sid Spinach' of Delos, whose carts sold very affordable spanakopita to the Spartan forces, keeping them well fed and ready for battle.

And we can't forget Dibleridies, who sold meat pies with a tiered pricing structure.
Meat pie 1 drachm,
identified meat pie 2 drachms. *



*Yes, a literary reference, hopefully there are other fans here.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by RCFire82

Jejune: naive, simplistic, and superficial.
Poppycock: nonsense.
Falderol: foolish talk.

It looks like Net54 has a new linguistic scholar on board. He still needs to satisfy the punctuation requirements and the spelling test though, before getting the title of “Grammar Marm”, a respected seat in the boardroom. If he knows that yawl is a sailboat, he is well on his way.

[G1911]

Cyrus the Great predates the war a century, and Cyrus the Younger wasn’t fighting in that war. The Persian league never gets credit.

Xenophon wrote the sequel, but he didn’t have a lot of involvement with the Peloponnesian War directly.

Everyone should have to write a thesis on Thucydides.

I wonder how fast Alcibiades could throw a rock, and if he could make it curve.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Falderol also means: 2. a trifle; gimcrack; gew-gaw. As in the title track from Guys and Dolls.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Falderol also means: 2. a trifle; gimcrack; gew-gaw. As in the title track from Guys and Dolls.

There was a conflict between the Fitness industry and the Plumbers and Pipefitters ultimately resolved in court regarding gimcrack.

The Fitness folks wanted to change the spelling to gymcrack for patrons with excessively tight or low-riding yoga pants.

The plumbers prevailed however and deleted the gim creating what is now known simply as a plumber’s crack.

[judsonhamlin]

I think Coaches Corner has a battle-used spear signed by Xerxes coming up for auction.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by judsonhamlin

I think Coaches Corner has a battle-used spear signed by Xerxes coming up for auction.

I hope Topps doesn’t buy it to cut up for their new Antiquated Antiquity Antiques relic inserts for 2023 Allen and Ginter.

[Yoda]

While Pericles held a good glove for the Athenian side, he could never hit a split finger fast ball and was eventually sent down to AAA Thebes.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I almost posted a top 10 hot plates of Polynesian Apartments thread but thought that might be silly...

[Exhibitman]

https://youtu.be/6b7r5jIEe9s



Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
Who was very rarely stable.
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
Who could think you under the table.
David Hume could out-consume
Wilhelm Freidrich Hegel.
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel.
There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya
'Bout the raising of the wrist,
Socrates, himself, was permanently pissed.
John Stuart Mill, of his own free will,
On half a pint of shandy was particularly ill.
Plato, they say, could stick it away,
Half a crate of whiskey every day.
Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle,
And Hobbes was fond of his dram.
And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart,
"I drink, therefore I am."
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed,
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.

[FrankWakefield]

Epicurus

How can you guys overlook Epicurus???


I continue to consider Hans Wagner the best ballplayer ever. I think Cobb was a better ballplayer than Ruth. And Ed Reulbach is an extremely overlooked player. Reckon Shohei Ohtani will one day start, finish and win both games of a double header? And if he does, will both wins be with shutouts???

https://sabr.org/journal/article/ed-...-doubleheader/