Were T206 Wagner's Ever Inserted into Packs?

[insidethewrapper]

Were T206 Wagner's Ever Inserted into Packs? How did a person obtain a copy back in the 1910's ?

[t206kid]

Yes, likely. I don't think I've seen any evidence that they weren't.

When Justin and I interviewed Keith Olbermann for our podcast, he posited that Wagner may have been a chase card (something held back, or included in very small quantities to get kids to chase and try to find it - like 33 Goudey Lajoie which you had to send away for).

There are original newspaper articles that talk about the cards from 1909, and the one below mentions folks looking for Cobb and Wagner, and finding a few Cobbs. Silent on Wagner.

[t206kid]

Also, this is an original ad from August 1909 that depicts Wagner, left middle. So they definitely thought he was going to be one of the first 150 "subjects"...

[mrreality68]

Good Stuff and Cool Historical Items for those advertisements

[Carter08]

One thing I was wondering is, and I am assuming all the different cigarette companies represented on the backs were not owned by the same company, did they all contract out to a company to make these cards? Were there any cigarette companies back then that said no and sold packs without cards?

[t206kid]

As far as I know, the American Tobacco company owned all the brands, and had a monopoly until 1911 (when broken up in an antitrust action).

Also, not every pack had a baseball card. You could also get a bird or a flag or an actress or something. Certain packs did, and some experts here can say which. Some packs had no cards at all. It was all a promo to get people to buy more cigarettes.

[FrankWakefield]

Jay's got that right. For more background on the tobacco company search American Tobacco Company on Wikipedia.

Mr. O may well be right about the chase card idea. After reading and listening to The Glory Of Their Times I think Honus Wagner was about the best ball player ever. (Not just as of 1909, but on through to 2021.) So he'd be the perfect chase card.

I think it was an issue about compensation for use of his likeness. And it seems reasonable that Wagner would have become aware of the cards after some cards were distributed with cigarettes; not when the cards were printed but not yet distributed.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Carter08

One thing I was wondering is, and I am assuming all the different cigarette companies represented on the backs were not owned by the same company, did they all contract out to a company to make these cards? Were there any cigarette companies back then that said no and sold packs without cards?

All the T206 brands were owned by the American Tobacco Company. T206 is only one of many sets issued over ~3 years by many ATC brands and printed in a complex relationship with New York Lithographers. The American Lithographic Company, Brett Lithography and possibly others printed the ATC project cards. The rights of living subjects seem to have been procured by the lithography companies, not the tobacco company. The cards printed by these lithographers seem to have included sets done for non-ATC companies, but no individual set was issued to both ATC brands and brands not associated with the ATC.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by G1911

All the T206 brands were owned by the American Tobacco Company. T206 is only one of many sets issued over ~3 years by many ATC brands and printed in a complex relationship with New York Lithographers. The American Lithographic Company, Brett Lithography and possibly others printed the ATC project cards. The rights of living subjects seem to have been procured by the lithography companies, not the tobacco company. The cards printed by these lithographers seem to have included sets done for non-ATC companies, but no individual set was issued to both ATC brands and brands not associated with the ATC.

Very great and interesting point regarding the player likeness rights possibly belonging to the lithographers and not the actual companies issuing the cards. Do you remember where or how you heard about that?

[insidethewrapper]

JAY: Great article about Cobb's being found, but no mention of Wagner's being found, which would I think give more support that it was not issued in packs. Still wondering if any evidence exists that it was inserted into packs of tobacco.

[Carter08]

Thanks for the info gents!

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by BobC

Very great and interesting point regarding the player likeness rights possibly belonging to the lithographers and not the actual companies issuing the cards. Do you remember where or how you heard about that?

I'm pretty sure there's signed contracts/waivers out there of several of the boxers in the various tobacco sets, with the lithography company.

Not sure if there's baseball versions out there, or if the lithography company would have had a general agreement with the league instead.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by BobC

Very great and interesting point regarding the player likeness rights possibly belonging to the lithographers and not the actual companies issuing the cards. Do you remember where or how you heard about that?

The Neal Ball letter is about giving American Lithograph permission to use his image and there's a letter asking Boxer Dick Hyland for permission to use his image from Frank Fullgraff who worked for Brett Lithograph.

Neal Ball Letter.jpg

Hyland letter.jpg

[G1911]

The Ball and Hyland letters are the only ones I'm aware of, I'd love to see any others. The Hyland is a recent discovery as far as I can tell. The Ball letter suggests it is the lithography company, not the tobacco conglomerate he is giving his rights too. The Hyland letter is pretty explicit about this and makes no mention of tobacco whatsoever; he is giving his rights to Fullgraff who appears to be essentially the project manager of the card projects at this time.

[npa589]

Originally Posted by t206kid

Yes, likely. I don't think I've seen any evidence that they weren't.

When Justin and I interviewed Keith Olbermann for our podcast, he posited that Wagner may have been a chase card (something held back, or included in very small quantities to get kids to chase and try to find it - like 33 Goudey Lajoie which you had to send away for).

There are original newspaper articles that talk about the cards from 1909, and the one below mentions folks looking for Cobb and Wagner, and finding a few Cobbs. Silent on Wagner.

This newspaper article is absolutely fascinating and endearing. Are there any more like it?