1919 Black Sox - How it happened

[toledo_mudhen]

I found this to be so interesting -

https://www.bbc.com/sport/baseball/5...=pocket-newtab

[jingram058]

Fullerton would appear to have been a pretty bright and interesting guy.

Excellent article!

[egri]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

[jingram058]

This thread needs a card. I didn't spend much for this, I think something like $10. But Hervey played for the 1919 Sox, and then passed away just a few years later. I love this card.

[mrreality68]

Excellent article and a lot I did not know.

Especially the part about baseball analytics because used to that fine of an art form back then by some

[mr2686]

No new information there. In fact, they should have fact check because Cicotte did not pitch in game two (he had pitched game 1) and was not "left out" of game 3 (it wasn't his turn in the rotation to pitch). Kinda makes it sound like it was all on Cicotte...it wasn't. I still believe that it was Gandil (who was retiring after the season anyway) that cheated the other players by taking the money that the gamblers supposedly didn't pay the players. Gandil went on to live in California and supposedly led a pretty sweet life.

[Piratedogcardshows]

I enjoyed that very much. Thank you.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by mr2686

No new information there. In fact, they should have fact check because Cicotte did not pitch in game two (he had pitched game 1) and was not "left out" of game 3 (it wasn't his turn in the rotation to pitch). Kinda makes it sound like it was all on Cicotte...it wasn't. I still believe that it was Gandil (who was retiring after the season anyway) that cheated the other players by taking the money that the gamblers supposedly didn't pay the players. Gandil went on to live in California and supposedly led a pretty sweet life.

Retiring or getting out of Dodge?

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by mr2686

No new information there. In fact, they should have fact check because Cicotte did not pitch in game two (he had pitched game 1) and was not "left out" of game 3 (it wasn't his turn in the rotation to pitch). Kinda makes it sound like it was all on Cicotte...it wasn't. I still believe that it was Gandil (who was retiring after the season anyway) that cheated the other players by taking the money that the gamblers supposedly didn't pay the players. Gandil went on to live in California and supposedly led a pretty sweet life.

Some very good points Mike.
Unfortunately something’s wrong may never know like the details of Gandil and his “retirement”

Love to see some cards here.
Since every post needs a card

[deadballera]

couple of gems...

[t206kid]

This is a game used ball from Game 5 signed by the umpires! Love Black Sox stuff.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by t206kid

This is a game used ball from Game 5 signed by the umpires! Love Black Sox stuff.

Never seen that

That is really cool

[Directly]

Cicotte salary of $5,000 in 1919 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $150,719.78 today.

Comiskey partly blamed for his ball players low salaries for them to throw the Series doesn't add up.

[detroitbaseball]

Originally Posted by Directly

Cicotte salary of $5,000 in 1919 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $150,719.78 today.

Comiskey partly blamed for his ball players low salaries for them to throw the Series doesn't add up.

Crunching numbers ...

1919 to 2021

$5,000 = $79,280.35
$9,075 = $143,893.83

SABR has Cicotte's base salary at $5,000.
Baseball Reference has Cicotte's salary at $9,075.

SABR - Black Sox salaries


SABR - 1919 American League salaries


Baseball Reference - 1919 Chicago White Sox

[Jim65]

Is there a list of all the plays that Fullerton thought were questionable?

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by detroitbaseball

Crunching numbers ...

1919 to 2021

$5,000 = $79,280.35
$9,075 = $143,893.83

SABR has Cicotte's base salary at $5,000.
Baseball Reference has Cicotte's salary at $9,075.

SABR - Black Sox salaries


SABR - 1919 American League salaries


Baseball Reference - 1919 Chicago White Sox

Great information Kevin. Thanks
Some more information to help better understand the history

[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by Directly

Cicotte salary of $5,000 in 1919 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $150,719.78 today.

Comiskey partly blamed for his ball players low salaries for them to throw the Series doesn't add up.

Couple of points here:

-Players' salaries were not public knowledge, a player knew their salary and maybe the highest salary on the team and a few other big name salaries in the league simply because those were the only ones printed in the paper...they also knew about what they were bought/traded for...which was usually more than what they were paid...point being if they knew Eddie Collins made $15,000 and they (lets say Weaver and Gandil two of the leagues best at their positions) made significantly less...it is easy to see how in their eyes they were under paid.

-Comiskey and Grabner were shrewd negotiators. You can go back and read hot stove league articles about contract negotiations between the White Sox on these players, seems like they were always strongly considering to stay home and play in another league (PCL) and pursuing other ventures at home to supplement their income. The last contract holdout before the 1919 season you would never guess...Honest Eddie Murphy who always maintained throughout his life that Comiskey was cheap...lets not forget that Dick Kerr was banished for jumping his contract with Comiskey over this very same thing.

-Cicotte took home north of $9,000 in 1919, he was a well paid pitcher and I dont think he ever blamed Comiskey for being cheap

The case against the Federal League ended early in 1919 if Im remembering correctly and that competition helped players get better contract negotiation leverage...thus with that coming to an end it was very reasonable for them to assume that they would all get pay cuts next time around (again check out some of the hot stove league articles about this)

The truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle...was Comiskey cheap...at times and with certain players yes probably...was he the cheapest man in baseball...no...unfortunately the players didnt know that...they just knew Eddie Collins made $15,000 and they didnt make any where close to that (also didnt help that Eddie Collins did not have a great relationship with some of his teammates it appears...nicknamed Cocky for a reason).

Comiskey is not blameless in this, sure now we can look at payroll and see the White Sox had one of the highest in baseball...but in terms of motivation for fixing the World Series that is really a moot point by simple fact that the players had no way of knowing that in 1919. All they knew was they were a pain in the ass at contact time, came across as cheap, and compared to Eddie Collins, which most of them didnt like, they made significantly less...perfect storm of bitterness toward management which he helped create.

[ThomasL]

I think only 3, maybe 4 of the Black Sox could argue they were under paid/under valued

Happy Felsch
Lefty Williams
Joe Jackson
and maybe Gandil...

Gandil thought really highly of himself and was always chasing the bigger check, I have zero doubt he thought he was underpaid and deserved more...I'd have to check but I think it might have been his lawyer in 1920-21 that started this whole narrative of underpaid players...Logically being a ringleader he used this tactic in recruiting others.

Worth noting that those were the 3 less educated of the White Sox and Gandil the most narcissistic (besides maybe Eddie Collins)

[ThomasL]

Here is a chart printed in the New York Herald during the trial showing the White Sox salaries for 1919 season. Almost certainly leaked by Comiskey and his lawyers to combat the narrative by the players' defense team.

interesting that is shows Gandil didnt receive WS share

I wish it gave details on the bonuses paid out...would have helped prove or disprove some stories that have emerged over time