Possibly trimmed cards - thoughts?

[ASF123]

I recently received 4 cards from the same eBay seller - 71T Aaron, Bench and Kaline, and 72T Clemente. They are all in generally great condition.

The issue is that the Clemente and the Bench look almost 1/16 inch too narrow, and the Kaline and Aaron may also be a little narrow (?), although less than the other two.

I looked at the edges with a 10x magnifier, and they did look quite smooth compared to others of the same years under magnification. But I have no experience in that area, and it could be that they just have nicer edges.

I contacted the seller - he is willing to accept the return but says they came from factory sets he received back then and he "hasn't looked at them since 1980." He also says he measured other cards from the sets and they are 2.5x3.5.

I have no reason not to believe him, but of course no reason to believe him either other than that in negotiating the sale (this was outside of the auction) he was communicative and nothing seemed shady whatsoever. Seller has only been on eBay for about 6 weeks, but 20 positive feedback and no negative. He has a decent inventory of late 60s/early 70s cards for sale, including other 71Ts that could plausibly be from the same factory set.

Thoughts? Could factory sets from that era have included cards that were cut a bit narrow?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[cardsagain74]

Cards from that era may be some of the most likely to sometimes be a shade smaller (because those out of vending boxes, and I'm guessing maybe factory sets too), often had a slightly different size cut.

I actually posted here about a '71 not too long ago and learned that

[Marchillo]

i didn't think factory sets were a thing until the 80's - could be wrong.

[G1911]

There were no factory sets in 1971, but some dealers in the 70’s sold complete sets (Fritsch, Galasso, etc.). Presumably he means he got one of these.

Topps cards in 2020 don’t even all measure the same size, open a pack and look carefully at the cards in a stack and you can see the difference. Plenty of legit over and undersize 1971’s. Impossible to issue any judgement without pics, but size isn’t the be all and end all of trimming.

[Marchillo]

Originally Posted by G1911

There were no factory sets in 1971, but some dealers in the 70’s sold complete sets (Fritsch, Galasso, etc.). Presumably he means he got one of these.

Topps cards in 2020 don’t even all measure the same size, open a pack and look carefully at the cards in a stack and you can see the difference. Plenty of legit over and undersize 1971’s. Impossible to issue any judgement without pics, but size isn’t the be all and end all of trimming.

my point is factory set implies direct from the factory in a sealed set - the sets you are talking about are hand collated - just wanted to make sure the OP was aware of that. And yes I agree cards are all over the place in terms of size - but I would be concerned if i received 4/4 shorter cards from the same person on ebay. But you are right it could be factory cuts.

[ASF123]

Thanks for the tips - I actually was just reading about how they didn't have factory sets in 1971. The seller's exact words were "My 71 and 72 cards were a Christmas present back in 72 and 73 as complete sets from the manufacturer." Not sure what to make of that, as memories can obviously be imperfect from that long ago. Could be referring to a vending box.

I've examined the cards some more, and I can't find any noticeable differences in feel or appearance (with or without magnification) between the vertical edges and the horizontal, which are presumably not trimmed as the cards are the standard height.

I'm attaching a few photos of the Clemente with another '72, to the extent that they may be helpful.

Thanks again, everyone.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

my point is factory set implies direct from the factory in a sealed set - the sets you are talking about are hand collated - just wanted to make sure the OP was aware of that. And yes I agree cards are all over the place in terms of size - but I would be concerned if i received 4/4 shorter cards from the same person on ebay. But you are right it could be factory cuts.

Which is why the first seven words very explicitly and unequivocally state “there were no factory sets in 1971”, before filling in with what is probably being referenced by the seller.

[JollyElm]

It's sort of a balancing act between what you paid for the cards and what the chances are that something is wrong here. First off, many here will tell you that the cards they bought in the 60's and 70's definitely showed occasional variance in sizing, so it is definitely not out of the question that those cards were born that way. But you have to decide whether or not a full 1/16 of an inch is sketchy or not. That is a significant difference. You've already stated that you have no reason to either believe the seller or not believe the seller, so you have to ask yourself a few pertinent questions:

1. Do the edges under magnification look as they should? Is there a way to take pics of your 10X magnification and post them here for some of the guys to look at?

2. How do the prices paid stack up? Did you get the cards on the cheap, or can you get the same cards/conditions for close to or at the same prices elsewhere? If it's the latter, then you may be saving yourself a lot of heartache by just returning them now and putting it all behind you. If they were low priced, but there's a possibility of them being deemed 'wrong' in the future, you have to decide whether the amount paid makes keeping them a non-issue.

3. Do you plan on getting the cards graded? If you shelled out a lot of money for them and they eventually come back as ungradeable due to sizing, you are going to scream like a banshee!!! I know what I'm talking about. In Bobby's last group sub, I had 4 cards returned unsuitable (N6: MINIMUM SIZE REQUIREMENT), three 1971's (including a Nolan Ryan!) and a 1961 Babe's 60th Homer. All were measured out beforehand and examined closely while laying atop a modern card, and they were the perfect size, yet I still got screwed...with no explanation from PSA, of course.

[JollyElm]

Do you have similar pics of the other side of the card? If it was a trim job, who's to say which side got sliced.

On a logic note, I'm not an expert, but when a card is trimmed using a paper cutter, X-Acto knife or whatever, there is a lot of force exerted downward on the card, so the very edge would sorta curve down a microscopic amount...if you know what I mean. A card coming out of the factory almost 50 years ago would have had plenty of time for that edge to re-elevate and match the rest of the card. So, if the edge sort of minutely curves downward, that is a reason for concern.

[mortimer brewster]

When were factory sets produced? I've seen collectors comment on seeing/receiving Factory sets ordered out of Sears/JC Penney catalogs around 1974-1975. I took a quick look thru their catalog offerings and did not find any sets for sale.

https://christmas.musetechnical.com

[ASF123]

Thanks guys!

John - I've been following your progress over on the 52T thread. Very cool that you're so close.

Darren - do you also sell on eBay? For some reason I think I might have seen your name on a receipt or something.

Anyway, to answer your questions:

1. Do the edges under magnification look as they should?

I don't have enough experience to know, unfortunately. They look smoother than a few other 71s and 72s I looked at under magnification, but the other cards were in lesser grades overall. I don't notice any difference between the L/R edges and the T/B edges of the cards, so that would seem to weigh against trimming.

1a. Is there a way to take pics of your 10X magnification and post them here for some of the guys to look at? -- I don't think so.

2. How do the prices paid stack up?

Pretty well, I'd say - they are among the best (and possibly the best?) raw examples of those particular cards I've seen on eBay (granted, only in the last month), and I paid an average of about a PSA 4 price for them.

3. Do you plan on getting the cards graded?

Almost certainly not. I think about as much of PSA as you seem to, and these are for my collection, which I don't want to lock away in slabs. It's more that as someone who is just learning about the hobby in 2020 after being gone for a long time, I want to make sure I don't get suckered. Also would not like the cards to be worthless if I do decide to sell them at some point, of course.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by mortimer brewster

When were factory sets produced? I've seen collectors comment on seeing/receiving Factory sets ordered out of Sears/JC Penney catalogs around 1974-1975. I took a quick look thru their catalog offerings and did not find any sets for sale.

https://christmas.musetechnical.com

1974 J C Penneys. Seems like the expirement failed, or had a delayed reaction by about a decade.

[Hxcmilkshake]

To me of they are short for any reason it would probably bother me. Especially those cards----they are not rare--- if it bothers you buy another.

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[Fjd133]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

To me of they are short for any reason it would probably bother me. Especially those cards----they are not rare--- if it bothers you buy another.

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I agree. You’ll always have questions. I would look to add others to my collection, and if he will take them back and the cost is worth the aggravation of returning them, that’s what I would do.


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