Is Heritage that much better than EBay?

[Rhotchkiss]

The first picture is of final prices on two t206s that ended on eBay tonight in a Greg Morris auction. The next two pictures are of the closing prices of the same cards in Heritage a few months ago. In a world where prices keep going up, why did these two, stud cards with rare backs, sell for less today? Does heritage command that much better results than eBay?

Walter Johnson - from $14,400 in July in Heritage to $12,600 today
Mordecai Brown, Cubs shirt - from $11,700 in July in Heritage to $9,219 today

[sando69]

hey ryan-
i've asked myself that same question numerous times.
then again, i've also asked countless times if pwcc and probstein are that much better than their competition on ebay!

[Snapolit1]

My guess is that as price escalation goes insane on well known cards and household names some of the “stud” cards like high end tobacco cards and the like will begin to suffer.

[rats60]

Because eBay auctions can be sniped. The under bidder doesn't have a chance to place another bid. Often auctions end for below market prices. On Heritage if you are out bid, you have a chance to place another bid.

[joejo20]

Originally Posted by rats60

Because eBay auctions can be sniped. The under bidder doesn't have a chance to place another bid. Often auctions end for below market prices. On Heritage if you are out bid, you have a chance to place another bid.

I agree and I almost always bid higher at an auction house because I am given the opportunity to do so. On eBay I usually set my snipe and see what happens when the clock runs out. Joe


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[frankrizzo29]

Because eBay auctions can be sniped. The under bidder doesn't have a chance to place another bid. Often auctions end for below market prices. On Heritage if you are out bid, you have a chance to place another bid.[/QUOTE]

+1

Personally, I am also leary of a card if it comes up in another auction relatively soon. Did the person get the card and see something they don't like about it? Also, I believe that there are a number of people who get caught up in bidding on a card because they don't want to lose, and end up paying more than they wanted to or more than they could afford to pay, so they try to quickly unload it, even if it's for a loss.

[Throttlesteer]

Yes, you di6nt have to deal with scammers. The AH deals with the bidder issues and you don't have to worry about the countless cons these idiots are pulling on Ebay.

[egbeachley]

How about simply because the high bidder with Heritage was not in the bidding on eBay? So now the Heritage underbidder is bidding against easier competition.

Never resell an item that close in time from winning it. Common sense.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by frankrizzo29

Because eBay auctions can be sniped. The under bidder doesn't have a chance to place another bid. Often auctions end for below market prices. On Heritage if you are out bid, you have a chance to place another bid.

+1

Personally, I am also leary of a card if it comes up in another auction relatively soon. Did the person get the card and see something they don't like about it? Also, I believe that there are a number of people who get caught up in bidding on a card because they don't want to lose, and end up paying more than they wanted to or more than they could afford to pay, so they try to quickly unload it, even if it's for a loss.[/QUOTE]

They also can be trying to make a quick profit and have a friend place a bid to protect their investment. Then if it doesn't exceed what they paid, they can cancel the auction. eBay is always a crap shoot unless the seller is well known.

There was a card that I was out bid at a major auction that was almost immediately listed on eBay and sold slightly less. I ended up buying the card from another major auction house for even less. That may have been such a case where the buyer got caught up in the heat of an auction.

[Casey2296]

Yes, the reputable auction houses are better than eBay on the whole. I'm willing to pay the vig at an auction house for them weeding out the trash and giving me options I just don't have on eBay, plus there is a level of trust with an AH. I've gotten great deals at AH and great deals on eBay, I've also overpaid at both places to acquire something. For example, I've been looking for a centered 58T Aaron yellow letter for a long time, EBay has nothing but shit to offer, either condition wise or price wise. I'm sure when I finally get one it will be from an AH.

It's interesting that Johnson sold for about the same price both times once you remove the AH premium. Unfortunately the seller got hammered coming in and going out for about a 30% loss.

[wnp22]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Yes, the reputable auction houses are better than eBay on the whole. I'm willing to pay the vig at an auction house for them weeding out the trash and giving me options I just don't have on eBay, plus there is a level of trust with an AH. I've gotten great deals at AH and great deals on eBay, I've also overpaid at both places to acquire something. For example, I've been looking for a centered 58T Aaron yellow letter for a long time, EBay has nothing but shit to offer, either condition wise or price wise. I'm sure when I finally get one it will be from an AH.

It's interesting that Johnson sold for about the same price both times once you remove the AH premium. Unfortunately the seller got hammered coming in and going out for about a 30% loss.

I agree with this in general (although it doesn't apply as much is in this situation since I would have no problem buying from a Greg Morris auction). For me, with cards in the price range of these two, I feel much more comfortable paying a little extra and buying from an AH than I do purchasing on ebay. Whether that feeling is justified or not is up for debate, but that's my view on it.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by wnp22

I agree with this in general (although it doesn't apply as much is in this situation since I would have no problem buying from a Greg Morris auction). For me, with cards in the price range of these two, I feel much more comfortable paying a little extra and buying from an AH than I do purchasing on ebay. Whether that feeling is justified or not is up for debate, but that's my view on it.

Agree, I would trust Greg Morris all day long and I've gotten some great mid grade deals from him. I think I paid $145 for a vg-ex 1966T #1 Mays that was centered a few weeks ago from him.

[PhillyFan1883]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

The first picture is of final prices on two t206s that ended on eBay tonight in a Greg Morris auction. The next two pictures are of the closing prices of the same cards in Heritage a few months ago. In a world where prices keep going up, why did these two, stud cards with rare backs, sell for less today? Does heritage command that much better results than eBay?

Walter Johnson - from $14,400 in July in Heritage to $12,600 today
Mordecai Brown, Cubs shirt - from $11,700 in July in Heritage to $9,219 today

Ryan I think this is a product of the card trading too soon after that first sale you noted. I have noticed a pattern for a long time- that if there is a recorded sale out there of a specific card/serial number, and its trades again the same year or within a year- often times the second go round struggles to reach the first sold number. Especially on 5k and above card. Cards like these should be held at least 2 years or so if the intention was to resell on a public platform. Private sale is a whole different ballgame- timetable doesn't matter as much IMO..

[Exhibitman]

There are a number of sophisticated collectors who do not use eBay for all the reasons we know and love (shilling, fakes, etc.). They rely on AHs to collect because the AHs at least weed out the nimrod sellers.

[chriskim]

I feel bad to those people who still think they can buy things from AH and make a profit on eBay. Prices on AH always jerk up but I have no doubt people can still find "good deals" there. Well, at least u can set your own reserve price on eBay but those fees add up selling on eBay and troubles dealing with buyers and potential returns etc making eBay is a buyer's platform.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by chriskim

I feel bad to those people who still think they can buy things from AH and make a profit on eBay. Prices on AH always jerk up but I have no doubt people can still find "good deals" there. Well, at least u can set your own reserve price on eBay but those fees add up selling on eBay and troubles dealing with buyers and potential returns etc making eBay is a buyer's platform.

Some people like to buy high end cards from auction houses and "display" them on eBay.

[icurnmedic]

Too soon and time of year. I personally try not to sell during the Holidays. Maybe only marginal difference in prices but there seem to be less under bidders. My experience only.

[chriskim]

Seeing all those shinely cards sold for record high in the millions but tobacco cards' prices aren't moving much really make me feel I should had collected pokemons/Gretzky/Jordan/Kobe/LeBron/Trout RCs.

The only exception that keep making new highs are T206 Wagners regardless of conditions. Even prices of nice condition Plank and Cobb backs aren't moving much.

[Vintageclout]

Ryan - JoeT here. FYI, piggybacking off of Connor’s very accurate response, I would like to add that when a card is re-auctioned, you immediately lose the winning bidder (assuming they are the new consignor). Thus, the most aggressive bidder has been lost in the new auction. We surely know that it takes two to tango, and losing one of those two can severely reduce the price of the card the second go-around.

[Rhotchkiss]

Joe, I agree with you and Conner on the one-less bidder theory, but I think there is more to it than that. The exact same 33 Goudey Lajoie sold in Heritage for a 20% premium over what the same exact card sold for in Heritage in May. I know it’s a small sample, but that is an example of a major card being immediately relisted with better results (in Heritage). So while I think that may be a factor, I am thinking the following are equally applicable:

1. Heritage (and memory lane, REA, etc) get more eyes on stud cards than eBay, especially a Greg Morris auction on eBay (as opposed to pwcc, no offense to Greg Morris); and

2. I agree that the extended bidding format of Heritage (and REA and all other lot by lot closings), likely create a few extra bids, whereas the close at one-time, set -a-snipe format of eBay auctions may leave bids (and money) on the table.

[sb1]

The biggest difference in the example of the T206's vs. the 33 Lajoie, is the fact that the Lajoie is a major milestone collectible. The T206 are commodity cards, readily available in all grades at nearly all times. One can pick and choose which T206 to buy, the Lajoie was very clean and likely someone who missed out the first go around decided to own the card in the recent auction. I don't have one and seriously considered throwing a bid in the mix at the ending night.

[oldeboo]

I'm not sure that the more higher end AHs get more eyes exactly, I don't doubt that they get more serious eyes though. I often see some great cards at AHs only have a few hundred views or less and the majority are probably from the same three people checking everyday. More valuable cards from sellers may gravitate towards an AH for many great reasons over eBay. There are a lot more opportunities of finding a diamond in the rough on eBay than at a top end AH, but you have to weed through a lot of junk and that time adds up. There are just too many factors to list that make them completely different animals. There are about as many similarities between auction houses and eBay as there are to the B/S/T, card shows/shops, flea markets and yard sales.

[Exhibitman]

'Reselling' on eBay may be a sales tax dodge. If you have a resale permit with Heritage you could avoid the sales tax by claiming to buy for resale. But how to prove it? Perhaps list the card on eBay at a high BIN. You then have proof of a resale effort if the tax man ever comes to collect his 10% and no sale except at a crazy profit.

Allegedly. Hypothetically.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Joe, I agree with you and Conner on the one-less bidder theory, but I think there is more to it than that. The exact same 33 Goudey Lajoie sold in Heritage for a 20% premium over what the same exact card sold for in Heritage in May. I know it’s a small sample, but that is an example of a major card being immediately relisted with better results (in Heritage). So while I think that may be a factor, I am thinking the following are equally applicable:

1. Heritage (and memory lane, REA, etc) get more eyes on stud cards than eBay, especially a Greg Morris auction on eBay (as opposed to pwcc, no offense to Greg Morris); and

2. I agree that the extended bidding format of Heritage (and REA and all other lot by lot closings), likely create a few extra bids, whereas the close at one-time, set -a-snipe format of eBay auctions may leave bids (and money) on the table.

Couple things I think..

The auction companies make sure you get paid. It seems quite rare that when you consign to one of the auction houses someone backs out on their bid. This happens ALL THE TIME on eBay, because they protect buyers interests first. This is also why some of what we see at Probstein and PWCC may not be able to be trusted - because the buyers didn't ultimately pay.

The other reason someone else pointed out, there are sometimes just not as many eyes on eBay. I actually was in the market for that specific Hindu Wajo, as I was one of the underbidders at Heritage the first time around. I would have definitely been after this card had I seen it, but I don't search eBay that frequently for T cards (my fault obviously this time) and didn't know it was even out there.

For five and six figure cards, though, I really do think it has as much to do with the auction houses getting you paid than anything else. There's just too many shenanigans that eBay let's buyers play with you and people who are selling cards at this level I assume want their money, lots of times because they're using it to fund something else.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by sb1

The biggest difference in the example of the T206's vs. the 33 Lajoie, is the fact that the Lajoie is a major milestone collectible. The T206 are commodity cards, readily available in all grades at nearly all times. One can pick and choose which T206 to buy, the Lajoie was very clean and likely someone who missed out the first go around decided to own the card in the recent auction. I don't have one and seriously considered throwing a bid in the mix at the ending night.

thought i'd add as well - i keep seeing comments like this that T206 cards are "commodity cards"

apparently i'm not shopping wherever you shop, because i've got plenty of funds set aside for these commodities but i can't find nice looking 4/5/6 with any regularity or at anywhere near what I'd consider "market" prices - unless we are now defining market again as "highest price ever for the grade"

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by bounce

i can't find nice looking 4/5/6 with any regularity or at anywhere near what I'd consider "market" prices - unless we are now defining market again as "highest price ever for the grade"

I take it you are referencing BINs on eBay or other fixed price sales.

FOMO: Fear Of Missing Out

I think a seller version of FOMO is driving reluctance to sell at the 'market' price. It is really hard for some people to sell into a rising market and not kick themselves for selling too soon. The market has caught up to cards I sold off five years ago for 'crazy' prices. I kind of wish I had a do-over.

[bounce]

Not just eBay - there are plenty of highest ever prices in FB groups and online forums etc

If anyone is selling Cobb Wajo Matty speaker lajoie “commodities” feel free to reach out directly to me - I’m ALWAYS looking for these just like everyone else is

[Bridwell]

Getting back to the original post. The actual sold price on a particular card in a particular PSA or SGC grade can vary by 20% or more, even if sold within a couple of months. Just look at VCP data. The images show the exact Cert number on the slab. There seems to be variability perhaps based on having 2-3 bidders competing at the end of an auction. Smart bidders can exploit that variability. I'm not sure there is any pattern to the day, or which auction house is involved. Sometimes, there could be a shill bidder involved. A smart investor might try to buy low and flip a card for a profit a few months later. I've seen a few HA cards from this summer being sold on Ebay. I've seen examples where this strategy has worked. Most buyers do not participate with all the auction houses. We've also seen examples where the strategy has failed miserably, where the resell price was very low on Ebay. I've had good luck buying on Ebay in the month of December.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by rats60

Because eBay auctions can be sniped. The under bidder doesn't have a chance to place another bid. Often auctions end for below market prices. On Heritage if you are out bid, you have a chance to place another bid.

Oh god, I would be broke and divorced if eBay had extra time bidding.

[Rich Klein]

In simplest terms, whether you like Heritage (or other reputable) auction houses or not, for various reasons they are more likely to get you what you won than some EBay sellers.

1) You will see in a real clear scan what you are bidding on,

2) You will receive said item in the condition you noted from seeing the scan.

3) There is plenty of recourse on the off-chance something goes haywire.

Regards
Rich