Aaron 714 Lineup card

[Topnotchsy]

Hey all,

Heritage has a lineup card from Hank Aaron's 714th homerun up at auction now. The lineup card comes from a staffer on the Braves, is signed by Aaron etc.

The issue I'm wondering about is that there is a second lineup card (one that sold a few years back at Lelands) that also appears to be from the same game. The Lelands one is said to have been Mathew's personal copy. (The ink version usually goes to the umpire).

In looking them over, one thing that jumps out is that in the Heritage listing, it is clearly Mathews signature, while the Lelands one has someone else's signature. If you look at other lineup cards from the era (I have one from the end of 1973, though don't seem to have a scan on my computer) I have never seen another lineup card where Mathews himself signed it. Over the years it was somewhat common for manager's to have someone else on the staff fill out and sign the lineup card for them (Durocher did so from time to time as an example). From all the lineup cards I've seen from that era (not a ton, but a couple of others) it seems like Mathews at least fairly consistently had someone else signing.

Looking at the lineup cards here, the one up at Heritage is written in the same hand as other lineup cards from the era (some times they were in print and at times script, but my guess is that it was all the same person).

There are a range of possibilities here. It is known that for Ripken's record setting game they filled out extra lineup cards. I can't see that being the case here since if so I'd assume all would have been signed by Mathews, and with Aaron's HR's, there was no way to know which game he would tie the record.

My gut feeling therefore, is that after the game, given the significance of the record tying homerun, another lineup card was written and Mathews signed it.

Not sure whether this is right, and not sure how I feel about it. Was hoping to get some thoughts/opinions from others. I collect lineup cards and this and the 715 one would have been grail items for me if I had the confidence that they were used in the course of the actual game.

[Michael B]

Looking at the two it does not look like they were written by the same person. The one on the left appears to be casual as I would expect for someone writing just to get it done. It has softer E's and L's - the bottom line is curved. The one on the right looks more practiced. The letters are separated and very clearly formed with a lot more connected lines. I have no opinion on whether one or both is the onfield lineup card. I am only looking at them as they are presented.

[hcv123]

I am NOT at all familiar with these - so just offer a couple of observations in looking at the images.

1) Look at the "C's" in Cassanova and Correll - there are many other letter shape observations that would make me question of they were done by the same person.
2) The image on the right appears a lot more "used" vs the one on the left looks exceptionally clean.
3) Is there any significance/help with the fact that the one on the right says "visiting managers copy"?

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I am NOT at all familiar with these - so just offer a couple of observations in looking at the images.

1) Look at the "C's" in Cassanova and Correll - there are many other letter shape observations that would make me question of they were done by the same person.
2) The image on the right appears a lot more "used" vs the one on the left looks exceptionally clean.
3) Is there any significance/help with the fact that the one on the right says "visiting managers copy"?

These are generally filled out using a carbon pad so the manager (or whoever fills it out) can fill it out once and there is a copy for the umpire, and home and away managers (along with the score keeper on occasion).

The top copy often references the manager signature and the others say things like “home manager” or similar.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

Hey all,

Heritage has a lineup card from Hank Aaron's 714th homerun up at auction now. The lineup card comes from a staffer on the Braves, is signed by Aaron etc.

The issue I'm wondering about is that there is a second lineup card (one that sold a few years back at Lelands) that also appears to be from the same game. The Lelands one is said to have been Mathew's personal copy. (The ink version usually goes to the umpire).

In looking them over, one thing that jumps out is that in the Heritage listing, it is clearly Mathews signature, while the Lelands one has someone else's signature. If you look at other lineup cards from the era (I have one from the end of 1973, though don't seem to have a scan on my computer) I have never seen another lineup card where Mathews himself signed it. Over the years it was somewhat common for manager's to have someone else on the staff fill out and sign the lineup card for them (Durocher did so from time to time as an example). From all the lineup cards I've seen from that era (not a ton, but a couple of others) it seems like Mathews at least fairly consistently had someone else signing.

Looking at the lineup cards here, the one up at Heritage is written in the same hand as other lineup cards from the era (some times they were in print and at times script, but my guess is that it was all the same person).

There are a range of possibilities here. It is known that for Ripken's record setting game they filled out extra lineup cards. I can't see that being the case here since if so I'd assume all would have been signed by Mathews, and with Aaron's HR's, there was no way to know which game he would tie the record.

My gut feeling therefore, is that after the game, given the significance of the record tying homerun, another lineup card was written and Mathews signed it.

Not sure whether this is right, and not sure how I feel about it. Was hoping to get some thoughts/opinions from others. I collect lineup cards and this and the 715 one would have been grail items for me if I had the confidence that they were used in the course of the actual game.

FWIW, Jeff I would agree with your comments above.
Even though the lineup card offered by Heritage looks nice, I would agree that it was done in addition to the one used in the actual game.

[roarfrom34]

For the sake of comparison, this is the one that was purported to be from the game where Aaron hit Home Run #715

[rlevy]

Jeff, this is strange. Looking at the one in Lelands, their description mentions that, although not pictured, they also included in the lot the line-up card for the Reds. Whenever I have acquired line-up cards from a noteworthy game, they included both teams. If you were a manager or the umpire, why wouldn't you just keep the extra slip of paper from a game as important as this one?
Dugout cards are usually sold for just one team since they may not have had access to the other teams dugout, but from my experience official line-up cards for major games are usually sold in pairs.

We may never know the correct answer, but I lean more to the Lelands cards as the ones from the game.

Rick

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by roarfrom34

For the sake of comparison, this is the one that was purported to be from the game where Aaron hit Home Run #715

Bill, I’ve never seen that before. Was that ever sold at public auction?

Heritage has a lineup card up from the 715th HR game. I didn’t mention it since I didn’t have one to contrast with. Thanks for posting this.

[roarfrom34]

Jeff...

I can't answer that although the only thing I can tell you is that it is currently in the possession of the MLB Hall of Fame in Cooperstown.

Bill

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by roarfrom34

Jeff...

I can't answer that although the only thing I can tell you is that it is currently in the possession of the MLB Hall of Fame in Cooperstown.

Bill

Bill, makes a ton of sense. Is it an image that can be found online (and if so can you send a link?) I've been searching and haven't been able to find it.

Thanks!

[roarfrom34]

Jeff:

The photo I shared is from a 1993 book entitled "Baseball Archaeology," (pg. 111) which shows photos of memorabilia from both private collections and the HOF.

I'm not sure if you've been to Cooperstown lately, but the Hall has a nice sized Hank Aaron exhibit and I've seen the lineup card on display there as well.

Here is a blog which shows a photo of it there too:

https://www.johnbudge.com/blog?category=Travel

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by roarfrom34

Jeff:

The photo I shared is from a 1993 book entitled "Baseball Archaeology," (pg. 111) which shows photos of memorabilia from both private collections and the HOF.

I'm not sure if you've been to Cooperstown lately, but the Hall has a nice sized Hank Aaron exhibit and I've seen the lineup card on display there as well.

Here is a blog which shows a photo of it there too:

https://www.johnbudge.com/blog?category=Travel

Thank you. That's really helpful.

It seems very clear to me that the lineup cards that are not the ones used in the game.

[Topnotchsy]

Shared the info with Heritage. Initially only reached out about 714, but followed up on 715. Will await a response.

[roarfrom34]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

Shared the info with Heritage. Initially only reached out about 714, but followed up on 715. Will await a response.

Great; I'd be interested in what they say.

Keep us informed!

[Topnotchsy]

They adjusted the description to say:

“UPDATE: Since this auction catalog went to print, we have been contacted with questions regarding this piece, and evidence that other versions of line-up cards from this game exist, also filled out in manager Eddie Mathews' hand. In the interest of complete transparency, we felt we must bring this information to the attention of our bidding clientele, and acknowledge the possibility that this card was created subsequent to the event.”

No mention that the 715 one is in the Hall (so undoubtedly that was the game used one) and that Mathews signature is actually an indication it was not the standard lineup card since he didn’t generally sign them.

A little disappointed in the edit, though better than nothing.

[perezfan]

I’m amazed they changed it at all...

Now if you can just contact them about the altered ‘58-‘59 Bobby Hull. For some reason, they refuse to amend its description, or more suitably remove it from the auction.

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I’m amazed they changed it at all...

Now if you can just contact them about the altered ‘58-‘59 Bobby Hull. For some reason, they refuse to amend its description, or more suitably remove it from the auction.

Feel like the fact that the Hall has the other one should be more than enough reason to recognize it's not the one from the game. (715 one)

[rlevy]

I have consigned to REA, Goldin, SCP and many others, but Heritage was the only one I ever had an issue with getting the descriptions for my items correct. I was always concerned that a winning bidder would receive the item, then learn it wasn't what they thought it was because the description was inaccurate. There was a guy at Heritage that simply didn't want to bother correcting descriptions. It took repeated phone calls just to get them mostly correct, and I finally gave up trying. I wonder if he is still there?

Heritage also screwed me out of $100 when they paid me the winnings, and no one would respond to my inquiries, but that is another story. They contact me all the time for consignments, but needless to say, they aren't very high up on my list.

Rick