OT: Roberto Clemente & Kobe Bryant

[samosa4u]

I was once reading a book and the author pointed out that Clemente was the second most collected athlete in the hobby (just below Mickey Mantle). Of course, I believe his early death played a big role in this. He was trying to help the earthquake victims of Nicaragua and his plane went down immediately after take-off. He was only 38-years-old.

Kobe Bryant also died young and in tragic circumstances. And like Clemente, he was trying to do something for other people. He wanted to be a better father, a better friend, and wanted to give back to his community anyway he could.

Now my question is, will Kobe become more collected as a result of this? Will he one day surpass LeBron and maybe even Jordan?

[conor912]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I was once reading a book and the author pointed out that Clemente was the second most collected athlete in the hobby (just below Mickey Mantle). Of course, I believe his early death played a big role in this. He was trying to help the earthquake victims of Nicaragua and his plane went down immediately after take-off. He was only 38-years-old.

Kobe Bryant also died young and in tragic circumstances. And like Clemente, he was trying to do something for other people. He wanted to be a better father, a better friend, and wanted to give back to his community anyway he could.

Now my question is, will Kobe become more collected as a result of this? Will he one day surpass LeBron and maybe even Jordan?

Don’t kid yourself. Kobe wasn’t on that chopper so he could be a better father. He was on it so he wouldn’t have to endure LA traffic.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by conor912

Don’t kid yourself. Kobe wasn’t on that chopper so he could be a better father. He was on it so he wouldn’t have to endure LA traffic.

It's okay to say it was both.

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Kobe Bryant also died young and in tragic circumstances. And like Clemente, he was trying to do something for other people. He wanted to be a better father, a better friend, and wanted to give back to his community anyway he could.

I think you are taking a radically generous view of how Kobe died. It does not make it less tragic that he died, but he died in an accident that happened because of his wealth and privilege. Who helicopters their kid to basketball? God bless him and his family, but his death was tragic, but not heroic.

[Bpm0014]

All of your answers thus far are spot on. I had a debate recently about the NBA retiring Kobe’s #24. Which is absurd, as MLB has never retired #21.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

It's okay to say it was both.

I disagree. There's dying young doing something heroic then there's just dying young. Kobe was the latter. Only time will tell if the motives of a trip gone horribly wrong will make a difference to collectibility, but to conflate the two is an insult to Clemente's efforts, IMO.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I was once reading a book and the author pointed out that Clemente was the second most collected athlete in the hobby (just below Mickey Mantle). Of course, I believe his early death played a big role in this. He was trying to help the earthquake victims of Nicaragua and his plane went down immediately after take-off. He was only 38-years-old.



Kobe Bryant also died young and in tragic circumstances. And like Clemente, he was trying to do something for other people. He wanted to be a better father, a better friend, and wanted to give back to his community anyway he could.



Now my question is, will Kobe become more collected as a result of this? Will he one day surpass LeBron and maybe even Jordan?

Not a chance.

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[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Mr. Clemente was on a rickety plane taking supplies to comfort earthquake victims. Huge difference...

[drcy]

The answer is you can't predict.

Upon his death, I was surprised at how popular was Kobe. But I'm not a huge follower of the NBA.

[hcv123]

Kobe's death (as well as the death of the other 8 people on the helicopter with him) was tragic - trying to compare him to Clemente - just out of place.

[Tabe]

Not sure I buy Clemente as second-most collected.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

Mr. Clemente was on a rickety plane taking supplies to comfort earthquake victims. Huge difference...

Plus, he was terrified of water, and was afraid of dying young. Yet he got on that plane. Clemente was a true hero, and lost his life as a direct result of his generous humanitarian efforts.

Kobe might've been a generally good guy, but his early death should not elevate his status, as Clemente's did his. There is little difference between Kobe's chopper crash and a basic car accident.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Plus, he was terrified of water, and was afraid of dying young. Yet he got on that plane. Clemente was a true hero, and lost his life as a direct result of his generous humanitarian efforts.

Kobe might've been a generally good guy, but his early death should not elevate his status, as Clemente's did his. There is little difference between Kobe's chopper crash and a basic car accident.

Clemente i believe still had some playing years left but yeah i agree, there is really nothing to compare in terms of the reasons of the flight...clemente was doing something not many people do, lots of fathers take their kids to games etc..

[pclpads]

Comparing the two deaths is an apples and oranges bit. Clemente was on a total humanitarian effort with little concern for his personal safety. Remember, he willingly got on a likely dilapidated vintage WW2 DC3 that was grotesquely overloaded with supplies. It was doomed to go into the soup as soon as the wheels left the ground. As noted above, Kobe was just on a helo trip to avoid LA traffic. As for the comparative value of their cards, Clemente's RC is and will likely continue to be out of reach in higher grades for most collectors. I don't think Kobe's death will ever see a similar price escalation in his cards. Not super stars like Kobe, but I liken his demise to Munston in '79, Ken Hubbs in '63 and Harry Agganis in '56. Similarly sad and tragic, but not close to heroic like Clemente.

[Exhibitman]

I'm from LA and a Lakers fan but the two are not even close. A humanitarian mission for EQ victims...crashing to attend a kids game isn't even worthy of comparison. The only point of similarity is that they were air crashes.

Kobe apparently was a nice man and a good father, and had his act together to an extent not often seen among superstars. His loss is a tragedy for his family and friends and sad for his fans. Clemente's death was a selfless charitable act. His death was a loss for humanity.

As for the cards, no comparison, really. You can't compare 1950s-1970s cards with junk wax cards. Kobe cards skyrocketed in the wake of the death. A year from now they will be back to earth: there's just too many of them. I know ardent collectors who sold their Kobe RCs immediately because the prices went up tenfold overnight. I would have done the same if I had any.

[samosa4u]

Some excellent replies. Thank you.

[bbcard1]

A fairly recent phenomenon is that we are mean to people in live and generous to them in death. Gerald Ford, who was one of the lesser respected Presidents in life, was compared to Lincoln in death. When Tony Gwynn dies, I heard a reporter say,"He was not only one of the best baseball players of all time, he was one of the best people of all time." I don't think there's a lot wrong with that, but maybe we should just be nicer to folks while they are alive.

[vintagewhitesox]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I'm from LA and a Lakers fan but the two are not even close. A humanitarian mission for EQ victims...crashing to attend a kids game isn't even worthy of comparison. The only point of similarity is that they were air crashes.

Kobe apparently was a nice man and a good father, and had his act together to an extent not often seen among superstars. His loss is a tragedy for his family and friends and sad for his fans. Clemente's death was a selfless charitable act. His death was a loss for humanity.

As for the cards, no comparison, really. You can't compare 1950s-1970s cards with junk wax cards. Kobe cards skyrocketed in the wake of the death. A year from now they will be back to earth: there's just too many of them. I know ardent collectors who sold their Kobe RCs immediately because the prices went up tenfold overnight. I would have done the same if I had any.

I would jump in only to say Kobe' cards are not "junk wax." There are several issues, mainly inserts, that are extremely difficult to find.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

A fairly recent phenomenon is that we are mean to people in live and generous to them in death. Gerald Ford, who was one of the lesser respected Presidents in life, was compared to Lincoln in death. When Tony Gwynn dies, I heard a reporter say,"He was not only one of the best baseball players of all time, he was one of the best people of all time." I don't think there's a lot wrong with that, but maybe we should just be nicer to folks while they are alive.

Gwynn actually was a nice guy. 8 batting titles does kind of qualify him as a pretty decent player.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

I think you are taking a radically generous view of how Kobe died. It does not make it less tragic that he died, but he died in an accident that happened because of his wealth and privilege. Who helicopters their kid to basketball? God bless him and his family, but his death was tragic, but not heroic.

And if there was a second pilot on board this tragedy probably would have been avoided... Flying a helo in fog of that kind needs two pilots...

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

... And like Clemente, he was trying to do something for other people...

Clemente was taking aid to earthquake victims, Kobe was aiding the people of Los Angeles by removing one vehicle from traffic.

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by Fred

Gwynn actually was a nice guy. 8 batting titles does kind of qualify him as a pretty decent player.

Don't disagree. But Greatest person of all time is a pretty big claim.

[Mike D.]

I think that fact that Clemente retired with EXACTLY 3,000 career hits, and the fact that he was still active, add to the draw for collectors.

Obviously, the reason he was flying when he died is a huge part of it, as others have mentioned but I think the other two are contributing factors as well.

Roy Halliday died young too, in an aviation accident. It may have contributed to him getting into the HOF a little earlier than he otherwise might have, but I don't think it'll have any long-term effect on card values.

[pclpads]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

And if there was a second pilot on board this tragedy probably would have been avoided...

Not likely. If there was a second helo pilot, you'd now have two dead pilots instead of one + the passengers. What? A second pilot could have seen through the fog? If conditions were as bad as stated after the crash, a second pilot wouldn't have been useful. The cause being knocked around is spatial disorientation / controlled flight into terrain.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

I think that fact that Clemente retired with EXACTLY 3,000 career hits, and the fact that he was still active, add to the draw for collectors.

For the past 20 years, I have been working with John Miley, selling his original radio broadcasts on CD. The game from 6/28/1970, the final game played at Forbes Field, includes an interview with Roberto. It sends chills listening to it, when he says his ultimate goal in baseball is to achieve 3,000 hits. Two and a half years later, on his final at bat, he did. And then he died.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

Don't disagree. But Greatest person of all time is a pretty big claim.

Greatest player of all time is a stretch, but the guy was a pretty good person to the fans. Probably not the Greatest person of all time, but a pretty good guy for sure.