Holsum research questions

[nolemmings]

Please help me with my research of the D327 Holsum Bread set. Two questions:

1) Can anyone confirm the existence of a Type 1 Holsum card that does NOT have an e135-style photo; i.e., fake horizon/washed-out background?
The closest I've come is the card of Dave Davenport, who was part of a large lot sold in Heritage awhile back. That card was graded as 1920 by SGC, but so was the entire 63 card lot, I believe, and I don't necessarily trust their attention to accuracy (they likely missed on a couple of others). No back scan was provided to confirm.

2) Can anyone confirm that one or more of these subjects can be found with a Type 1 back?:

A: Bagby; Donovan; Foster; Gowdy; Griffith; Judge; Peckinpaugh; Pfeffer; Rixey; Ruth; Thomas;Toney;Whitted. These have been confirmed with Type 2.

B: Daubert, Doak; Jennings; Maranville; McInnis; Meadows; Miller O; Pipp; Schupp; Williams F; Witt, Wood. I have seen these with e121-80 or other related backs, but not Holsum.

Thanks for any help, and confirming scans would be very much appreciated.

[Leon]

Hey Todd
I am sure there are some out there but how many collectors do you think actively collect the set rather than just a type card, HOF'er, or some other particular subset? I remember a few discussions on them in the past but don't remember the participants. Good luck in the hunt. Sorry I can't help with the questions as I never collected the set.

[nolemmings]

I don’t expect many or maybe anyone to be collecting the Holsum set(s) per se, including me, but thought that there are enough type and team collectors here that it is worthwhile to ask them to check their holdings to see if they might answer my questions at least in part. I have been contacted by one member who provided a scan of a Type 2 Holsum I had not confirmed, so I already consider my post a success although I would love to see more.

I am trying to determine the size and extent of Type 1 and Type 2 Holsum checklists. I have confirmed 79 subjects for Type 1, although a couple of those are based only on front scans and TPG slabs, and thus are only semi-confirmed. There really should be more, including Babe Ruth, yet at least thus far an argument can be made that the ad back’s claim of “80 different to the set” looks pretty accurate. There may have been multiple printings of Type 1 that takes the total over 80, as it appears there were at least two printings of Type 2.

I also am somewhat fixated, as you know, on Felix Mendelsohn’s involvement in creating early B&W sets. Because he is very likely the creator of the 1917 E135-like sets and those very poses are used again not only in Holsum but also other 1920-21 sets, I stay on the hunt for information. That is one reason I am interested in whether Type 1 used exclusively 1917 photos, although I would add that Type 2 also borrowed at least some Mendelsohn poses from m101-6 (e.g. Speaker and Wingo). Finally and for purposes of discussion, I would note that I have seen some collectors claim that Type 2 Holsum is more readily found than Type 1. I have confirmed only 54 Type 2 backs, far less than Type 1, and although I don’t follow all sales or pops (there may be multiples of these Type 2s that create a larger population), I have not seen that, and would ask others to describe their experiences. Thanks for looking.

[buymycards]

Hi Todd, I wish I could help, but I only have 2 Holsum's. The Morton is incorrectly identified as a 1921.

Rick

[rhettyeakley]

Todd, I have confirmed checklisted 76 different Holsum Type 1's and ALL have the E135 style images.

I have confirmed about the same number of Type 2's that you have but those are a mix of images from the E135 and updated photos (with backgrounds).

-Rhett

[nolemmings]

Thanks guys. I'll look more closely later tonight, but I believe the only three "semi-confirmed" Type 1s I see are the Davenport already mentioned, Graney and Pratt. Davenport is the only one of the three that does not use the 1917 pose, so he may be a Type 2, although his presence in the Holsum set(s) at all is kind of puzzling so we shall see (hopefully someone can post a back scan of that card). The Graney scan I have for Type 2 shows a longer dash between his position and team name than the front scan I have for what I believe is Type 1, so they are at least two different printings if not different Types. The Pratt has a 1920 label on the slab and shows a 1917 pose, so it seems likely that if this is instead Type 2, any Holsum card of him in Type 1 would use the same pose; i.e. the issuer would not have first used an updated or different photo and then reverted back to the 1917 pic in Type 2. Still, that does not confirm he was in fact included in Type 1.

Even if folks can't address my specific questions, I always enjoy seeing scans, so like Rick, feel free to post 'em if you got 'em.

[rhettyeakley]

Todd, Davenport is Type 2, I have never seen this card as a Type 1, and don't expect to as he seems to be from the same group as Harry Covaleskie (w/ background) and John Henry (w/ background) that were new to Holsum Type 2, Herpolsheimers, early W575-1 blank back, and Standard Biscuit. (and likely Shotwell if/when more of those come to light). These guys were all dropped before any E121 sets were made. I have not confirmed these 3 w/ all those backs bu they seem to be part of a grouping.

Pratt and Graney are both found in Type 1 with their E135 style fronts. I have not confirmed Pratt as a Type 2 but Graney is found in both Type 1 and Type 2 (same image)

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Please help me with my research of the D327 Holsum Bread set. Two questions:

1) Can anyone confirm the existence of a Type 1 Holsum card that does NOT have an e135-style photo; i.e., fake horizon/washed-out background?
The closest I've come is the card of Dave Davenport, who was part of a large lot sold in Heritage awhile back. That card was graded as 1920 by SGC, but so was the entire 63 card lot, I believe, and I don't necessarily trust their attention to accuracy (they likely missed on a couple of others). No back scan was provided to confirm.

2) Can anyone confirm that one or more of these subjects can be found with a Type 1 back?:

A: Bagby; Donovan; Foster; Gowdy; Griffith; Judge; Peckinpaugh; Pfeffer; Rixey; Ruth; Thomas;Toney;Whitted. These have been confirmed with Type 2.

B: Daubert, Doak; Jennings; Maranville; McInnis; Meadows; Miller O; Pipp; Schupp; Williams F; Witt, Wood. I have seen these with e121-80 or other related backs, but not Holsum.

Thanks for any help, and confirming scans would be very much appreciated.

I'll address your specific questions...

#1) NO, all have E135 front images

#2) A: From your list I have only confirmed Peckinpaugh (interestingly his name is spelled CORRECTLY & then in later E121/Holsum Type 2 & the like printings they mispelled it Peckinbaugh),

[nolemmings]

Have you seen the back of the to confirm for certain that it is a Type 2? I understand your reasoning and don't disagree, but the others you cite also had a Type 1 version that used the 1917 pose. Davenport has no 1917 card, which points to him either not having a Type 1 card (likely) or being the sole Type 1 card to use a non-1917 pose (unlikely). I will assume he is Type 2 going forward, and hope to see a front/back scan combo to put the matter to rest.

If Davenport is Holsum Type 2, then there are 55 confirmed of that Type by my count. Of that total, I only show the following 16 Type 2 cards with a background in the pose; i.e., an updated or different photo from the 1917 E135 cards:

Alexander, Bodie, Cobb, Coveleskie, Davenport (assuming he is Type 2), Evers, Henry, Hooper, Hornsby, Killefer, Lewis, Speaker, Stock, Strunk, Wambganss, and Wingo.

Oddly, the Coveleskie and Henry cards were changed even though neither really belonged in either Holsum set, having already played their final MLB games more than a year before the earlier set was printed. Instead of removing these outdated players, the publisher granted them an additional appearance with a new pose. Also, Wambsganss was changed from a correct, 1917 photo in Type 1 to an incorrect photo of Fritz Coumbe in Type 2--the same incorrect photo Mendelsohn had used for Wamby in his m101-4 set (hmmm...)

In any event, does anybody else have other Holsum players showing a background other than those on my above list?

[Jobu]

I can add a scan of my Holsum Schalk and a link to Zach's great site where he was keeping track of confirmed cards, though it might not be up to date:

https://www.louisianacards.com/holsum-bread.html

[asphaltman]

My only two. Pretty sure Wambganss has two different photos in this set, one the Type 1 and the other variation Type 2

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Have you seen the back of the to confirm for certain that it is a Type 2? I understand your reasoning and don't disagree, but the others you cite also had a Type 1 version that used the 1917 pose. Davenport has no 1917 card, which points to him either not having a Type 1 card (likely) or being the sole Type 1 card to use a non-1917 pose (unlikely). I will assume he is Type 2 going forward, and hope to see a front/back scan combo to put the matter to rest.

If Davenport is Holsum Type 2, then there are 55 confirmed of that Type by my count. Of that total, I only show the following 16 Type 2 cards with a background in the pose; i.e., an updated or different photo from the 1917 E135 cards:

Alexander, Bodie, Cobb, Coveleskie, Davenport (assuming he is Type 2), Evers, Henry, Hooper, Hornsby, Killefer, Lewis, Speaker, Stock, Strunk, Wambganss, and Wingo.

Oddly, the Coveleskie and Henry cards were changed even though neither really belonged in either Holsum set, having already played their final MLB games more than a year before the earlier set was printed. Instead of removing these outdated players, the publisher granted them an additional appearance with a new pose. Also, Wambsganss was changed from a correct, 1917 photo in Type 1 to an incorrect photo of Fritz Coumbe in Type 2--the same incorrect photo Mendelsohn had used for Wamby in his m101-4 set (hmmm...)

In any event, does anybody else have other Holsum players showing a background other than those on my above list?

Todd, I owned the Davenport until recently. I add nobody to my confirmed list unless I have seen them in hand or have 100% concrete evidence which back is present.

[nolemmings]

Thanks guys. I will try and provide my list of Type 1 Holsums soon, but have some Holiday obligations.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by Jobu

I can add a scan of my Holsum Schalk and a link to Zach's great site where he was keeping track of confirmed cards, though it might not be up to date:

Thanks Brian, I have seen Zach's list and note it has some names with question marks. If those get confirmed, I'll be happy to add them. Frankly, there are lot of potential additions out there, especially a Type 1 Babe Ruth.

My only two. Pretty sure Wambganss has two different photos in this set, one the Type 1 and the other variation Type 2

Thanks Dave. I believe yours is the only Wamby Type 1 that I have seen. Type 2 is the aforementioned error/mis-identification of Fritz Coumbe as Wambsganss. If there is a different Type 2 I have not seen it. A shame they didn't use the m101-6 pose, which I like alot.

Todd, I owned the Davenport until recently. I add nobody to my confirmed list unless I have seen them in hand or have 100% concrete evidence which back is present.

Thanks Rhett. I can put that one to rest. He would have been quite the outlier as a Type 1, and I suppose one could surface, but that seems very unlikely.

[nolemmings]

Here is the list of Type 1 Holsums I believe exist. Any comments and additions welcome:
NOTE: I sometimes just used the player's common name for my list rather than the exact name on the card, for example Sam Rice instead of E.C. Rice. I can clean that up, but didn't want people thinking they might have a rare variation just because their cards showed a different spelling. I will try and note changes in caption from Type 1 to Type 2 in other posts.

HOLSUM TYPE 1:

ALEXANDER, GROVER
BAKER, J. FRANKLIN
BANCROFT, DAVE
BARRY, JACK
BURNS, GEO. J
BURNS, TIOGA GEORGE
BUSH, OWEN
CAREY, MAX
CHAPMAN, RAY
CICOTTE, ED

COBB, TY
COLLINS, EDDIE
COVELESKIE, HARRY
CRAVATH, GAVVY
CUTSHAW, GEO.
DAUSS, GEORGE
DEAL, CHARLES
FABER, URBAN
FELSCH, HAP
FLETCHER, ART

FOURNIER, JACQUES
GEDEON, JOE
GRANEY, JOHN?
GROH, HEINIE
HARPER, HARRY
HEILMANN, HARRY
HENRY, JOHN
HERZOG, BUCK
HOLKE, WALTER
HOOPER, HARRY

HORNSBY, ROGERS
JACKSON, JOE
JANVRIN, HAROLD
JOHNSON, WALTER
JOHNSTON, JAMES
KAUFF, BENNY
KILLEFER, BILL
LAVAN, JOHN
LEIBOLD, NEMO
LEONARD, DUTCH

LEWIS, DUFFY
MAMAUX, AL
MCGRAW, JOHN
MILAN, CLYDE
MORGAN, RAY
MORTON, GUY
MYERS, HY
NEHF, ARTIE
O'NEILL, STEVE
PECKINPAUGH, ROGER


PRATT, DERRIL?
RARIDEN, BILL
RICE, SAM
ROBERTSON, DAVEY
ROTH, BOB
ROUSH, ED
RUDOLPH, DICK
SALLEE, SLIM
SCHALK, RAY
SCOTT, EVERETT

SEVEREID, HANK
SHAWKEY, BOB
SHORE, ERNIE
SHOTTON, BURT
SISLER, GEORGE
SMITH, J. CARLISLE
STENGEL. CHARLES
STOCK, MILT
STRUNK, AMOS
TYLER, GEORGE

VAUGHN, JIM
VEACH, BOB
VITT, OSCAR
WALSH, JIM
WAMBSGANSS, BILL
WEILMAN, CARL?
WHEAT, ZACH
WILLIAMS, CLAUDE
YOUNG, PEP

[rhettyeakley]

Todd here are my Type 1's that have all been confirmed, I owned nearly all of them so they were mostly in my possession... (names are as they appear on the card, except on card the names are all caps)

Grover Alexander
J. Franklin Baker
Dave Bancroft
Jack Barry
George Burns
Geo. J. Burns
Owen Bush
Max Carey
Ray Chapman
Eddie Cicotte
Ty Cobb
Eddie Collins
Harry Covaleskie
Gavvy Cravath
Geo. Cutshaw
Geo. Dauss
Charles Deal
Urban Faber
"Hap" Felsch
Art Fletcher
Jacques Fournier
Joe Gedeon
John Graney
Heinie Groh
Harry Harper
Harry Heilmann
John Henry
"Buck" Herzog
Walter Holke
Harry Hooper
Rogers Hornsby
Joe Jackson
Harold Janvrin
Walter Johnson
James Johnston
Benny Kauff
Wm. Killefer Jr.
John Lavan
"Nemo" Leibold
H. B. Leonard
Duffy Lewis
Al Mamaux
John J. McGraw
Clyde Milan
Ray Morgan
Guy Morton
"Hy" Myers
Arthur Nehf
Steve O'Neill
Roger Peckinpaugh
Derril Pratt
Bill Rariden
E. C. Rice
Davey Robertson
"Bob" Roth
Ed Roush
Dick Rudolph
"Slim" Sallee
Ray Schalk
Everett Scott
Hank Severeid
Bob Shawkey
Ernie Shore
Burt Shotton
Geo. Sisler
J. Carlisle Smith
Amos Strunk
George Tyler
Jim Vaughn
Bob Veach
Oscar Vitt
Jim Walsh
Carl Weilman
Zack Wheat
Claude Williams
"Pep" Young

Here are the confirmed Type 2's...
Grover Alexander
Jim Bagby
J. Franklin Baker
Dave Bancroft
Ping Bodie
Geo. J. Burns
Owen Bush
Max Carey
Ty Cobb
Harry Covaleskie
Jake Daubert
George Dauss
Dave Davenport
Charles Deal
Bill Donovan
Urban Faber
Jacques Fournier
Hank Gowdy
John Graney
Tom Griffith
John Henry
Harry Hooper
Rogers Hornsby
James Johnston
Joe Judge
Bill Killefer
Duffy Lewis
Al Mamaux
John McGraw
Otto Miller
Ray Morgan
Guy Morton
Arthur Nehf
Steve O'Neill
Roger Peckinbaugh
Jeff Pfeffer
E. C. Rice
Eppa Rixey, Jr.
Babe Ruth
"Slim" Sallee
Ray Schalk
Walter Schang
George Sisler
J. Carlisle Smith
Charles Stengel
Milton Stock
Amos Strunk
Fred Toney
Chester Thomas
George Tyler
W. Wambsganss (w/o background-E135 image)
W. Wambsganss (w/ background-E121 image)
Zach Wheat
George Whitted
Pep" Young


I have positions-pose-team recorded for all players in both sets in the above lists (as they appear on the cards).

[soxinseven]

You can add Everett Scott to the type 2 list. I sent a scan to Todd today. I’ve had it for years, bought it on the old board I believe.

[Leon]

Always appreciate board members chiming in with good info (all in this thread). It is interesting how so many of us concentrate on different things. I like the Holsums but have never tried the set (as I usually gravitate to type cards). Thanks for sharing, guys!!
This Hornsby was in my last collection. Hope the new owner enjoys it.

Originally Posted by soxinseven

You can add Everett Scott to the type 2 list. I sent a scan to Todd today. I’ve had it for years, bought it on the old board I believe.

[nolemmings]

Nice Rajah Leon. Rhett, here is my list of Type 2s, with those highlighted in red not on your list:

Grover Alexander
Jim Bagby
J. Franklin Baker
Dave Bancroft
Ping Bodie
Geo. J. Burns
Owen Bush
Max Carey
Ty Cobb
Eddie Collins

Harry Covaleskie
George Dauss
Dave Davenport
Charles Deal
Bill Donovan
Johnny Evers
Eddie Foster
Jacques Fournier
Hank Gowdy
John Graney

Tom Griffith
John Henry
Harry Hooper
Rogers Hornsby
Rogers Hornsby one w/e135 front, the other e121
Walter Johnson
James Johnston
Joe Judge
Bill Killefer
Duffy Lewis

Al Mamaux
John McGraw
Otto Miller
Ray Morgan
Guy Morton
Arthur Nehf
Roger Peckinbaugh
Jeff Pfeffer
E. C. Rice
Eppa Rixey, Jr.

Babe Ruth
"Slim" Sallee
Ray Schalk
Walter Schang
Everett Scott
George Sisler
Tris Speaker
Milton Stock
Amos Strunk
Fred Toney

Chester Thomas
George Tyler
W. Wambsganss (w/ background-E121 image)
Zach Wheat
George Whitted
Ivy B. Wingo
Pep" Young

[ZachS]

Sorry I'm late to the party. I never have time to slow down anymore with the kids always involved in something (right now it's baseball... much better than soccer).

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Todd here are my Type 1's that have all been confirmed, I owned nearly all of them so they were mostly in my possession...

You are 100% certain of the Type 1's and 2's on your list? If so, I will update the website accordingly. I have many discrepancies when comparing my list to yours... granted I was going off what little information I could find at the time.

Type 1 differences:

-Cards on my list with a "?" as to what type (on your list as Type 1's):
Eddie Collins
Jacques Fournier

-Cards on my list as Type 1's but not on your list:
Dave Davenport
Bill Donovan (pitching)
Walter Schang
Charles Stengel
Milton Stock

-Card I have listed as Type 2 only (also listed on your list as Type 1):
J. Carlisle Smith

Type 2 differences:

-Cards I have listed only as Type 1's (Type 2's on your list):
Grover Alexander
J. Franklin Baker
Dave Bancroft
Geo. J. Burns
Owen Bush
Max Carey
Harry Covaleskie
Dave Davenport
Bill Donovan
Urban Faber
John Henry
Harry Hooper
Rogers Hornsby
James Johnston
John McGraw
Guy Morton
Steve O'Neill
Roger Peckinbaugh
Ray Schalk
Walter Schang
Milton Stock
Pep Young

-Cards on my list as "?" (you have listed as Type 2's):
Ping Bodie
Jacques Fornier
Hank Gowdy
Tom Griffith
Joe Judge
Otto Miller
W. Wambsganss - I don't have this card listed as having 2 variations w/ and w/o background

-Cards not on my list at all (you have listed as Type 2's):
Jim Bagby
Jake Daubert
Eppa Rixey, Jr.

[rhettyeakley]

Yes I am certain, I owned all but 5-6 of the Type 1’s and about 75-80% of the Type 2’s I listed up until very recently.

[ZachS]

Well alrighty then... I'll update the list on the website.

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

here is my list of Type 2s, with those highlighted in red not on your list:

And you're certain of the ones in red? I had a few of those listed as "?" on my list.

[nolemmings]

Zach, here is my response to your recent posts:

"Cards on my list with a "?" as to what type (on your list as Type 1's):
Eddie Collins – I have confirmed this also
Jacques Fournier– I have confirmed this also

-Cards on my list as Type 1's but not on your list:
Dave Davenport
Bill Donovan (pitching)
Walter Schang
Charles Stengel--I have confirmed this also
Milton Stock--I have confirmed this also

-Card I have listed as Type 2 only (also listed on your list as Type 1):
J. Carlisle Smith --I have confirmed this for only Type 1 also

Type 2 differences:

-Cards I have listed only as Type 1's (Type 2's on your list):
Grover Alexander--I have confirmed this also for both
J. Franklin Baker--I have confirmed this also for both
Dave Bancroft--I have confirmed this also for both
Geo. J. Burns--I have confirmed this also for both
Owen Bush--I have confirmed this also for both
Max Carey-–I have confirmed this for Type 2
Harry Covaleskie-- I have confirmed this for Type 2
Dave Davenport-- I have confirmed this for Type 2 (from Rhett)
Bill Donovan-- I have confirmed this for Type 2
Urban Faber
John Henry--I have confirmed this also for both
Harry Hooper--I have confirmed this also for both
Rogers Hornsby--I have confirmed this also for both
James Johnston--I have confirmed this also for both
John McGraw--I have confirmed this also for both
Guy Morton--I have confirmed this also for both
Steve O'Neill
Roger Peckinbaugh--I have confirmed this also for both
Ray Schalk--I have confirmed this also for both
Walter Schang--I have confirmed this for Type 2
Milton Stock--I have confirmed this also for both
Pep Young --I have confirmed this also for both

-Cards on my list as "?" (you have listed as Type 2's):
Ping Bodie--I have confirmed this for Type 2 only
Jacques Fournier -I have confirmed this for Type 1 only
Hank Gowdy--I have confirmed this for Type 2 only
Tom Griffith--I have confirmed this for Type 2 only
Joe Judge--I have confirmed this for Type 2 only
Otto Miller--I have confirmed this for Type 2 only
W. Wambsganss - I don't have this card listed as having 2 variations w/ and w/o background– Type 1 of this card appears scanned in this thread; I only have confirmed Type 2 with the erroneous photo of Fritz Coumbe

-Cards not on my list at all (you have listed as Type 2's):
Jim Bagby--I have confirmed this for Type 2 only
Jake Daubert
Eppa Rixey, Jr.--I have confirmed this for Type 2 only


"And you're certain of the ones in red? I had a few of those listed as "?" on my list."

I may have to change my assessment of Evers, whose confirmation I can only find for Standard Biscuit, at least for the moment. The others I have confirmed; Eddie Collins (Huggins and Scott); Eddie Foster (Sterling); Rogers Hornsby w/e135 front (Legendary auctions);Walter Johnson (Goodwin); Tris Speaker (Bagger’s); and Ivy B. Wingo (Goodwin)

[Leon]

That is some really good follow up research. Thanks again guys...