N48 Dixie/Virginia Brights and N508 Sub Rosa

[Cozumeleno]

Would love to hear from anyone familiar with these two classifications. I've been trying to sort out the various types and checklists on these sets for a while and recently wrote about my findings here.

I come up with five different types of N48s and would love to hear from anyone collecting/studying these to see if they've got more/better info.

[Cmount76]

Thanks for the great read! I have been quite interested in these classifications for a number of years, and other than a few previous threads here on Net54, I haven't been able to uncover much.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=151197

Having said that, what would this thread be without some eye candy (I couldn't get #2 to upload)


These were all entombed, but I freed them. I still have the flips, and they are all classified as N508's.

Oh, and if anyone knows the location of #5 or #6, I will pay top dollar!!

[Joe_G.]

Minor point, I think you are dating these issues too early. As I pointed out in Jeff's recent post on silks, A&G distributed crops ~3 years after harvest. So crop of 1884 was likely distributed in 1887. Here is what I wrote previously:

FWIW, A&G cigarettes were produced with ~3 year old crops at that time. I have two 1888 cigarette packs that are dated June 26th and Dec. 18th 1888 that both advertise being from the "Crop of 1885". Most of the "Crop of 1884" A&G items likely date to ~1887.

I also believe Dixie cigarettes were a later issue, closer to ATC merger in 1890, but I don't have proof. The many A&G albums that were offered in 1888 do not mention Dixie cigarettes. This might be one research avenue you could pursue (determine when Dixie Cigarettes were released).

[Cozumeleno]

Thanks, Joe - I agree the dates are up in the air a bit as are other 1880s generic-subject releases. I merely took the 1886 dates since that is the date Burdick used. I believe I've seen them as 1886 and 1888. Maybe even other years as well.

Point taken for sure - trying to nail down an exact date would be a good research avenue to pursue. I was more interested in trying to figure out how many types there were and what a theoretical checklist could look like. But I agree that trying to confirm the dating would be great, too.

[Piratedogcardshows]

Great information on cards that have been catching my eye as of late. I was just talking about the Virginia Bright cards with my dad. He had no idea they existed. Thanks for the write up!

[1880nonsports]

a good start would be the WTI and the newer companion. I collected all pre 1900 woman BB player cards and photos - albeit ostensibly pre eBay/internet. I had a near complete and complete set. I NEVER found a single risidio card and encountered only ONE in an auction. There are at least two variants of the Virginia brights. FOUR or FIVE seems a bit generous and perhaps you are mixing apples and oranges but who knows. Companies were purchasing time staggered photo shoots, second printings, licensing, and changing stock can all be factors. No time to look at your link just this second but I will. What specifically are your questions? As an aside - I think the "presidential heads" are superimposed onto these women as companies utilized anything and everything in their "stock". I believe there was an actual Black Stocking Nine team as there was a contract found? Perhaps they were their "cigarette rollers" although I would think if that were the case - Ginter would have plastered their name all over it instead of just on the mounts of their cabinet and store cards. Lots of questions and little time. I moved on from these more than 18 years ago so bit out of the mindset. I have but a single type and two cabinet photos left in my collection.

no guarantees whether written or implied.

[Cozumeleno]

Thanks for your info. The article doesn't cover things like the Risidos, presidential heads, etc. (and yes, the presidential heads used the same photos as on these cards). Those are separately cataloged sets. Specifically, I looked at the different types of N48 Virginia Brights and Dixie cards.

The five types within N48 that I came up with include:

- Type with position captions (Both Dixie/VB)
- Type with borders and numbers (Both Dixie/VB)
- Type without borders and numbers (Both Dixie/VB)
- Type with captions on bottom with same design as N508 Sub Rosa (Only Dixie)
- Type with polka dot uniforms (Only VB)

While Jefferson Burdick mentioned only two types, he lumped #1-3 above all as one type while cataloging Type 4 as N508 (which it still should be but has been moved to N48 for whatever reason). His two types were polka dot and non-polka dot uniforms, which is really an oversimplification since there's a lot of variance between the types.

My specific questions are if anyone had any additional information related to the N48 types that might be helpful (other variations seen, other checklisting info, etc.). Should anything else related to N48 come to you after reading the article, please let me know. Thanks -

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

a good start would be the WTI and the newer companion. I collected all pre 1900 woman BB player cards and photos - albeit ostensibly pre eBay/internet. I had a near complete and complete set. I NEVER found a single risidio card and encountered only ONE in an auction. There are at least two variants of the Virginia brights. FOUR or FIVE seems a bit generous and perhaps you are mixing apples and oranges but who knows. Companies were purchasing time staggered photo shoots, second printings, licensing, and changing stock can all be factors. No time to look at your link just this second but I will. What specifically are your questions? As an aside - I think the "presidential heads" are superimposed onto these women as companies utilized anything and everything in their "stock". I believe there was an actual Black Stocking Nine team as there was a contract found? Perhaps they were their "cigarette rollers" although I would think if that were the case - Ginter would have plastered their name all over it instead of just on the mounts of their cabinet and store cards. Lots of questions and little time. I moved on from these more than 18 years ago so bit out of the mindset. I have but a single type and two cabinet photos left in my collection.

no guarantees whether written or implied.

[Joe_G.]

I have not studied these cards in any detail but would expect that the cards were issued and re-issued in later years resulting in format changes, much like a Dan Brouthers N172 of the same pose being issued in 1887, 1888, 1889, and 1890 with similar but unique card layout/design each year. I suspect Dixie was introduced just prior to ATC merger but if it is found to be 1887 or earlier introduction than I'd date the first issue to about that time.

FWIW, an 1888 Virginia Brights and 1892 Dixie pack. Anyone aware of another Dixie pack in the hobby?

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by Joe_G.

I have not studied these cards in any detail but would expect that the cards were issued and re-issued in later years resulting in format changes, much like a Dan Brouthers N172 of the same pose being issued in 1887, 1888, 1889, and 1890 with similar but unique card layout/design each year. I suspect Dixie was introduced just prior to ATC merger but if it is found to be 1887 or earlier introduction than I'd date the first issue to about that time.

FWIW, an 1888 Virginia Brights and 1892 Dixie pack. Anyone aware of another Dixie pack in the hobby?

Concur on the dating thing. It's really the only thing that makes sense give the similarity of the cards but the different designs. And those packs are fantastic.

[Joe_G.]

Thought I might give this thread a bump with addition of a Sub Rosa cigarette pack. Sub Rosa cigarettes were produced by M. S. Pacholder in Baltimore, MD. This pack has an 1883 tax stamp which would be used from 1883 to 1893. There is no overstamp to help narrow dating although the slide & shell packs became common in 1887 (replacing paper packs).

The outer shell is miscut so I used photoshop to, in part, fix the miscut in order to see what the pack was meant to look like.

Another cigarette manufacturer, H. Mandelbaum from NY, would issue N508 cards similar to Sub Rosa but with the gold advertising box blank and instead placing their advertising on the card back. Here is link to an old auction of 3 such cards.

[Leon]

Nice Joe. Very ornate and par for the time period. Thanks for sharing it.

Originally Posted by Joe_G.

Thought I might give this thread a bump with addition of a Sub Rosa cigarette pack. Sub Rosa cigarettes were produced by M. S. Pacholder in Baltimore, MD. This pack has an 1883 tax stamp which would be used from 1883 to 1893. There is no overstamp to help narrow dating although the slide & shell packs became common in 1887 (replacing paper packs).

The outer shell is miscut so I used photoshop to, in part, fix the miscut in order to see what the pack was meant to look like.

Another cigarette manufacturer, H. Mandelbaum from NY, would issue N508 cards similar to Sub Rosa but with the gold advertising box blank and instead placing their advertising on the card back. Here is link to an old auction of 3 such cards.

[Cozumeleno]

Gorgeous pack - great stuff.