Donald Trump opinion

[theshleps]

My 7 month old grandson, Isaac, sent out his first autograph request and this just came 3 months later. I haven't seen it in person yet but my son who is a collector says it doesn't appear to be preprinted on the picture or letter. What do you think? Ghost signed? Auto pen? Real? Let me know your opinion please. No political comments please
trump.jpg

[Steve D]

The signatures are different.

If I were to guess, I'd say the letter is autopenned, and the photo is probably authentically signed. The straightness of the lines in the letter signature just looks to "perfect" to me.

Steve

[Steve D]

In fact, here's a match to your letter, that I just found at http://www.stephenkoschal.com/news.html.

http://www.stephenkoschal.com/Trump-Autopen-3.jpg



Steve

Edited to add image.

[theshleps]

thanks Steve= great find on the letter. that would be great if picture is real.

[jimjim]

They both look like autopen. The picture looks like the same temple as the letter but compressed into a smaller size.

[Mr. Zipper]

The likelihood of getting an authentic signature from a sitting president is extremely low. Of course anything is possible, but I suspect the photograph is either an Autopen or a printed signature. Can’t make any sort of definitive determination based upon this low resolution photo.

[vintagewhitesox]

This is most likely autopenned.

I worked in the White House in the late 90s, and virtually all of the correspondence from the public was autopenned.
Very cool piece nonetheless.

[Steve D]

I did a bit more looking, and I now think the signature on your photo is a match with this autopen, also at the link I posted above:



Steve

[theshleps]

How close to autopens have to be? My grandsons letter is close to Steves posted but not 100%. The picture is close to the other one posted but with the picture in hand I can point out many small differences. Do autopens change pens once in a while so you get minor differences or are there multiple autopen machines? I had Joe Montana and Elway autopens that were 100% similar but these aren't 100%. What do you think

[shelly]

Your Republicans?
Thought you where in europe? Can we get together to see your stuff ?
last question. When are you back to Hawaii/

[sago]

Ready for the ban hammer, but cannot pass on the low hanging fruit. IMO, he is the worst President ever, and has made a mockery of women's rights, civil rights, the Constitution, and everything this country ideally stands for. Can't wait for the midterms.

Been nice mostly lurking.

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by theshleps

How close to autopens have to be? My grandsons letter is close to Steves posted but not 100%. The picture is close to the other one posted but with the picture in hand I can point out many small differences. Do autopens change pens once in a while so you get minor differences or are there multiple autopen machines? I had Joe Montana and Elway autopens that were 100% similar but these aren't 100%. What do you think

Old school autopens showed some variations as the matrices that guided the pen would wear down with use. Plus, if the user moves the paper slightly or the paper moves slightly, there will be small variations. Also, different writing implements can cause different thicknesses, and other slight variations.

[Bestdj777]

With the large amount of mail some people get, is it possible there would be multiple autopen machines for each person? I'm assuming it's a manual feed process and multiple people would be working on replies.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by theshleps

How close to autopens have to be? My grandsons letter is close to Steves posted but not 100%. The picture is close to the other one posted but with the picture in hand I can point out many small differences. Do autopens change pens once in a while so you get minor differences or are there multiple autopen machines?

Autopens can vary slightly based on armature vibration, the item slipping as it is being fed through, the template wearing, etc. It's a myth that "autopens have to be a 100% exact match."

The signatures below are the same Autopen patterns, likely signed within minutes of each other. Note the differences... the G of Gene, R of Ron, E of Evans, etc.

[theshleps]

those are really big differences. makes it very hard to discern when something is an autopen

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by theshleps

those are really big differences. makes it very hard to discern when something is an autopen

This is kind of an extreme example, but it illustrates the point well. I can't tell you how many times I've told someone their item was an Autopen, and they will argue it's not an Autopen based on a tiny variance from a published pattern.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by sago

Ready for the ban hammer, but cannot pass on the low hanging fruit. IMO, he is the worst President ever, and has made a mockery of women's rights, civil rights, the Constitution, and everything this country ideally stands for. Can't wait for the midterms.

Been nice mostly lurking.

buh bye. Don't let the door hit you in the arse....

[SetBuilder]

Definitely an autopen. I sent a TTM request to Bill Gates when I was a kid and he sent me back a glossy signed photo and a signed letter on Microsoft letterhead. I discovered both were autopens years later. I'm sure Trump's staff handles all TTM requests as a courtesy to his fans.

Also, this signature is probably a stylized version of his real signature, made to look nice. They took all the elements of his full signature and created an archetypal version for the autopen machine. Think of Arnold Palmer's signature on his golf courses, Ronald Reagan's signature on the cover of his autobiography, etc. His real signature would be much sloppier and differ a bit more from known examples. His campaign trail signature was basically a line of zig zags.

[SetBuilder]

I just noticed. Look at the date.

July 16, 2018. He was in Helsinki meeting with Putin.

Couldn't possibly have signed that letter.

[theshleps]

sounds like we have autopens only. the photo wasnt dated and he was home the 17th but that is being overly optomistic

[w7imel]

I sent Mr Trump auto requests in mid 90"s and got these back. what do you guys think?

[Mr. Zipper]

I believe that is secretary.

[theshleps]

these were in person maybe 2007
ZZZ Trump 2004 UD #89.jpg

ZZZ Trump 2004 UD 90.jpg

[sycks22]

Most sitting Presidents don't sign as mentioned above. I've written foundations of previous Presidents and most will sign their books through the mail, but nothing outside of that. I'd love to have a baseball from most of them.

[slidekellyslide]

How could anyone tell if his signature is legit. There does not seem to be any consistency in the number of peaks in his first and last name.

[Forever Young]

Seismometer

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

Seismometer

I've always likened Trump's signature, to a city skyline. He did make his money building skyscrapers.

Here's another signature (autopen) that looks like a seismograph reading (it's astronaut Jeffrey Hoffman):



Steve

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

How could anyone tell if his signature is legit. There does not seem to be any consistency in the number of peaks in his first and last name.

It is a challenge. I've been studying it for a while and it took some time before I felt like I was getting a handle on it. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I can sort it out most of the time.

Don't count peaks and valleys. It's not reliable.

Real examples have the sharp, jagged appearance seen in the in-person cards above. Trump is also very consistent in angle and slant.

There are a few secretaries in play. The secretaries tend to be slightly softer in the angles. In the through the mail index cards above, note the rounded bottom of the D and the softer curves along the baseline. Also, the secretary doesn't tower the D, J and T as high above the other letters.

His signature evolved significantly from the 80s to now. I focus on full name signatures and won't waste time with the abbreviated campaign trail signatures. In my view, those cannot be reliably authenticated in many cases.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by sycks22

Most sitting Presidents don't sign as mentioned above. I've written foundations of previous Presidents and most will sign their books through the mail, but nothing outside of that. I'd love to have a baseball from most of them.

I was watching the President-signed baseballs in the recent Hunt auction but couldn't touch any of the ones I was interested in.

A lot of collectors like Ike!

[SetBuilder]

Trump likes to write in all capital letters, so when viewing the zig-zags as capital letters, his signature can be quite legible at times. But there only seems to be a structure to the zig-zags when he's trying to be neat.

Here is one of his nicer examples. I think it's from the guestbook at the Holocaust museum.

As you can see, his first and last name is readable.

Sometimes though, he just draws zig-zagging lines with no rhyme or reason which don't correspond to letters at all. Some can go on for a while in a long line before he ends it with the final letter P in his last name.

[1treasuretrove]

I just purchased a large signed book and photo collection. The collection was from a doctor in NYC who attended charity dinners for years and there are as many signed programs and playbills as books included. The collection is less sports and more politics/celebrity related. Ironically, I was surprised to find a few Trump items mixed in with some of the less valuable celebrities - I guess the guy forgot about them...it was a nice surprise.

Just had to share since I saw this thread...

[2dueces]

Originally Posted by Leon

buh bye. Don't let the door hit you in the arse....

Obviously the misinformed Sago doesn't live in Texas.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Leon

buh bye. Don't let the door hit you in the arse....

A bit harsh for a first "offense," wouldn't you say, Leon?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

A bit harsh for a first "offense," wouldn't you say, Leon?

no...
Banishment isn't always permanent. But to flagrantly say you know you are going to be banned for doing something that will get you banned, and then doing it anyway, well, I would say he got exactly what he wanted and knew he was going to get. I wish they were all this black and white. Unfortunately they aren't. Hope that clarifies my thought on it?

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Leon

no...
Banishment isn't always permanent. But to flagrantly say you know you are going to be banned for doing something that will get you banned, and then doing it anyway, well, I would say he got exactly what he wanted and knew he was going to get. I wish they were all this black and white. Unfortunately they aren't. Hope that clarifies my thought on it?

Hard to argue with that. He got the banishment he knew he deserved.

[RichardSimon]

Since I do not want to be banished I will keep my opinions about Trump to myself, FB and my circle of family and friends .

But Leon, I do belong to a photography forum which has a section called The Attic. You can post anything in there that you want to including politics, religion, sex, drugs and rock n roll, etc. Whoever wants to read those posts can and if you do not want to read about those subjects you just avoid it.

[Runscott]

I like the fact that this is one of the few forums that does NOT provide such opportunities to increase my blood pressure.

[Leon]

We have always preferred to let people argue politics elsewhere.

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Since I do not want to be banished I will keep my opinions about Trump to myself, FB and my circle of family and friends .

But Leon, I do belong to a photography forum which has a section called The Attic. You can post anything in there that you want to including politics, religion, sex, drugs and rock n roll, etc. Whoever wants to read those posts can and if you do not want to read about those subjects you just avoid it.

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by Leon

We have always preferred to let people argue politics elsewhere.

...and many of us here thank you for that Leon. This is one of the few places I can get away from all the Political BS.

[drcy]

I agree. There are more than enough other places to go and debate politics if and when one wants.

Personally, I'd prefer not to know anyone's politics on this board, and am happy for others not to now mine.

[Big Six]

Originally Posted by drcy

I agree. There are more than enough other places to go and debate politics and religion if and when one wants.



Personally, I'd prefer not to know anyone's politics on this board, and am happy for others not to now mine.

Amen!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by drcy

I agree. There are more than enough other places to go and debate politics if and when one wants.

Personally, I'd prefer not to know anyone's politics on this board, and am happy for others not to now mine.

Agreed.

My mother always told me to never discuss politics or religion in public as everyone already has an opinion you will never change and it is as fruitful as banging your head against a wall and hoping it will start to feel good.

I once made a slip years ago, not doing it again. Thanks to Leon for keeping it this way and eliminating the building of ill-will against another forum member simply because they disagreed in the voting booth.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by drcy

I agree. There are more than enough other places to go and debate politics if and when one wants.

Personally, I'd prefer not to know anyone's politics on this board, and am happy for others not to now mine.

Here here!

[parker1b2]

Originally Posted by drcy

i agree. There are more than enough other places to go and debate politics if and when one wants.

Personally, i'd prefer not to know anyone's politics on this board, and am happy for others not to now mine.

+1000

[theshleps]

thanks. I started the post and specificaaly said No political comments please.

[thenavarro]

I've got 15 or so Trumps and they've been very difficult to sell, but all of the sudden over the past couple of weeks I've sold 2 and had a few other inquiries.

Good to see that turning around finally.

If you are interested in any feel free to click the link in my sig line and ferret around on my page.

[SetBuilder]

Politics is now a sport. Turn on all the nightly political shows and they look like ESPN Sportscenter. Tickers, roundtable discussions, analysis...pretty soon they'll bring out the telestrator and start drawing on the screen when a politician is giving a speech.

[Gary Dunaier]

Originally Posted by Leon

We have always preferred to let people argue politics elsewhere.

That being the case, perhaps you should change the name of this thread to "Donald Trump autograph opinion." "Donald Trump opinion," by itself, sounds like it's going to be an opinion about Donald Trump.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by drcy

I agree. There are more than enough other places to go and debate politics if and when one wants.

Personally, I'd prefer not to know anyone's politics on this board, and am happy for others not to now mine.

I doubt if anyone gets as feverish as myself when it comes to politics!!!

I, for one, am very happy that I can get away from it here.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I made the mistake of assuming a fellow dealer was simpatico with my political viewpoint. While we're still friendly, my mistake definitely strained our relationship. Lesson learned.