TPG responsibility + AH Responsibility

[Fred]

We have a few threads going about "authenticated" forged signatures and some of the cards are very expensive.

I'm still a bit confused on what responsibility or guarantee the TPGs provide when their service is used.

As far as cards go, it would seem fairly obvious that if a "fake" is slabbed and discovered then what can/will the TPG company do to rectify the situation?

In the case of these forged signatures on T206 cards (getting a bit pricey now) what responsibility or guarantee do the TPGs (including JSA) provide? In most cases the TPG could just say this is our opinion and we stand by it but when there is proof that the signatures are forgeries, then "we stand by it" goes out the window.

[swarmee]

https://www.psacard.com/about/financialguarantee

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by swarmee

https://www.psacard.com/about/financialguarantee

If JSA has the same guarantee, I figure REA & Hunt will get the cards back from their buyers, refund them, and then send them to JSA so they can "buy them back". The authenticator is the one left holding the bag if the submitter of the card disappears.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

If JSA has the same guarantee, I figure REA & Hunt will get the cards back from their buyers, refund them, and then send them to JSA so they can "buy them back". The authenticator is the one left holding the bag if the submitter of the card disappears.

This is the last part of their guarantee. Not exactly sure what it means but it doesn't look like they will guarantee some sort of signature...Maybe there is another guarantee for autographs?

Guarantee applies only to the grade assigned to the card and does not apply to the authenticity of any autograph nor the grade assigned to any autograph; and the Guarantee does not apply to, and cannot be utilized by, the original submitter (or the original submitter’s agents, employees, affiliates or representatives) of the graded card.



.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by Leon

This is the last part of their guarantee. Not exactly sure what it means but it doesn't look like they will guarantee some sort of signature...Maybe there is another guarantee for autographs?

Guarantee applies only to the grade assigned to the card and does not apply to the authenticity of any autograph nor the grade assigned to any autograph; and the Guarantee does not apply to, and cannot be utilized by, the original submitter (or the original submitter’s agents, employees, affiliates or representatives) of the graded card.

.

That wording seems to directly contradict the "fails PSA’s authenticity standards" in the 3rd paragraph.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Leon

This is the last part of their guarantee. Not exactly sure what it means but it doesn't look like they will guarantee some sort of signature...Maybe there is another guarantee for autographs?

Guarantee applies only to the grade assigned to the card and does not apply to the authenticity of any autograph nor the grade assigned to any autograph; and the Guarantee does not apply to, and cannot be utilized by, the original submitter (or the original submitter’s agents, employees, affiliates or representatives) of the graded card.



.

Leon, in this case there is definite proof that the signatures are forgeries. If there was no proof, only speculation, then I could see the TPG saying "we stand by our opinion" but in this case, the opinion is PROVEN to be incorrect.

I would hope that the TPGs would bend over backwards to protect their service because at this time, the signature authenticator is looking pretty bad....

Drawing attention to this can only do the hobbyists good by opening their eyes to the possibility of being scammed and being vigilant in their collecting so that they are aware there are assholes out there looking to screw them over.

[Snapolit1]

In my next life I'm coming back as a TPG.

If you pay for 15 day service and I get it back to you in a month, who cares. Screw you.

If you pay me to put a card in a holder and I do it poorly and the card is swimming around crooked, who cares. Screw you.

If you pay me to authenticate an autograph and I get snooked by some dude living in his mothers' basement with a few sharpee pens, who cares. Screw you.

And I have so many people lined up out the door for this wonderful service and I can barely deal with them.

God bless America.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Leon

This is the last part of their guarantee. Not exactly sure what it means but it doesn't look like they will guarantee some sort of signature...Maybe there is another guarantee for autographs?

Yes, this is their card guarantee. My guess is this clause applies to the 1998-present pack pulled cards that are not evaluated for autograph authenticity because they came directly from the manufacturer signed. PSA does not currently require that those autographs go through PSA/DNA in order to grade the card, since the card company is already certifying the autograph as authentic.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

In my next life I'm coming back as a TPG.

If you pay for 15 day service and I get it back to you in a month, who cares. Screw you.

If you pay me to put a card in a holder and I do it poorly and the card is swimming around crooked, who cares. Screw you.

If you pay me to authenticate an autograph and I get snooked by some dude living in his mothers' basement with a few sharpee pens, who cares. Screw you.

And I have so many people lined up out the door for this wonderful service and I can barely deal with them.

God bless America.

Steve, have you ever watched the movie "Goodfellas"... reminds me of that scene with Ray Liotta telling why he wanted to be part of the "gang"....

Love the post!

Edited to add this link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XGAmPRxV48

[steve B]

My limited experience with TPG is that even when handed a solid explanation why something is fake, they'll stand behind their opinion.

And that's a company I like....

[mrvster]

but Liotta couldn't do it without Chantix

[mrvster]

hahahaha

[Fred]

Originally Posted by steve B

My limited experience with TPG is that even when handed a solid explanation why something is fake, they'll stand behind their opinion.

And that's a company I like....

If JSA pays out for the fake autos then that's going to be quite a bit of cash based on the few that have been posted in the other threads, so far. If they do, then my hat's off to them for standing by their company. JSA will have to authenticate a bunch of stuff to make up for those mistakes. Makes you wonder how many more are out there.

Nobody's perfect - see the following.... I got a kick out of it, kind of felt sorry for the guy that bought the ball with the "lifetime guarantee"...

http://autographplanet.com/forum/rip...time-guarantee

[stlcardsfan]

Originally Posted by mrvster

but Liotta couldn't do it without Chantix

.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by Leon

This is the last part of their guarantee. Not exactly sure what it means but it doesn't look like they will guarantee some sort of signature...Maybe there is another guarantee for autographs?

Guarantee applies only to the grade assigned to the card and does not apply to the authenticity of any autograph nor the grade assigned to any autograph; and the Guarantee does not apply to, and cannot be utilized by, the original submitter (or the original submitter’s agents, employees, affiliates or representatives) of the graded card.

.

I think it's highly unlikely that any TPA is going to refund the original purchase price of the item for autographs. They gave an opinion, in these instances SGC slabbed and JSA agreed with authenticity via certificate.

Neither one of them have any responsibility related to the original purchase price of the item PRIOR to encapsulation/authentication, though.

Yes, I suspect the recent buyers will send them back to the auction houses, who in turn will need to deal with the consignors, who then in turn need to return to who they purchased from, etc etc etc.

TPAs are probably only on the hook for the grading fee to whoever submitted it.

[Johnny630]

TPG's will never be held accountable becasue they're only rendering a opinion. It's up to the buyer to respect their opinion or not. I chose for the most part not to.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by stlcardsfan

.

Easily my favorite modern era gangster movie. Just the best. I'm my next life I'm also marrying Karen.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by bounce

I think it's highly unlikely that any TPA is going to refund the original purchase price of the item for autographs. They gave an opinion, in these instances SGC slabbed and JSA agreed with authenticity via certificate.

Then honestly, what the hell are we paying for with these companies? Sounds like buying a warranty for a TV or a car, but never being able to use that warranty for anything.

Opinions are like a$$holes... everyone has one.

[Zan]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

In my next life I'm coming back as a TPG.

If you pay for 15 day service and I get it back to you in a month, who cares. Screw you.

If you pay me to put a card in a holder and I do it poorly and the card is swimming around crooked, who cares. Screw you.

If you pay me to authenticate an autograph and I get snooked by some dude living in his mothers' basement with a few sharpee pens, who cares. Screw you.

And I have so many people lined up out the door for this wonderful service and I can barely deal with them.

God bless America.

LOL post of the year

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

All of the complaining about TPGs not meeting their deadlines, slabbing fake autos, giving preferential grades to big time submitters, etc. When the smoke clears, collectors will keep on giving them their money. Nothing changes. Depressing...

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[Fred]

Just to add on -

Someone made a good point in one of the forged signature threads.

After the AH are notified, should they be responsible for notifying the buyers and investigating the consignor? I would think so.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

At what point are the authenticators themselves investigated?

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[glchen]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Then honestly, what the hell are we paying for with these companies? Sounds like buying a warranty for a TV or a car, but never being able to use that warranty for anything.

Opinions are like a$$holes... everyone has one.

I've gotten money back from TPG's due to misgrade/authenticity, so to me, sending items to a TPG (and buying items that are backed by a TPG) is definitely worth it as I've been treated very fairly. Saying that, I haven't done this for a bad autograph before, so no idea what will happen here.

[Exhibitman]

If any victim is stonewalled by PSA, I know a lawyer who might be willing to sue them...he's done it before.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

TPG's will never be held accountable becasue they're only rendering a opinion. It's up to the buyer to respect their opinion or not. I chose for the most part not to.

“Buy the auto, not the flip”??!!

[mrvster]

hahahahahaha!!

buhahahaha

[chalupacollects]

If ever there was a time for a class action lawsuit to regulate or straighten out these AH's and TPG's it might be now...

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

If any victim is stonewalled by PSA, I know a lawyer who might be willing to sue them...he's done it before.

Since the buyer bought the card with a JSA LOA originally for $20,000+, I don't think that PSA would owe that much unless the owner sold it to someone for more. Now JSA would be on the hook for the value difference between the auction sale value and the original $200 price of the unsigned card, since that's what the loss would be. Right?

[Bigdaddy]

I would think that this is a big opportunity for one of the affected AHs or TPGs to step up and work with authorities to bring the forgers to justice. It's not a long trail. And make a statement that they are credible and responsible for the wares/services they are selling and set themselves apart from the crowd. Maybe they already are and it's going on behind the scenes. Sadly, maybe not.

My feeling is that all these forgeries point back to one person or group and that there is much more than what has been uncovered so far. T206s that have not been sold via web-based means (and therefore harder to track), Goudeys, Exhibits, etc. If/when we get to the bottom of this, 'there will be blood'. Not to mention numerous pre-war cards that have been defaced.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

REA and SGC have already intimated that they are working on this issue with authorities.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

In my next life I'm coming back as a TPG.

If you pay for 15 day service and I get it back to you in a month, who cares. Screw you.

If you pay me to put a card in a holder and I do it poorly and the card is swimming around crooked, who cares. Screw you.

If you pay me to authenticate an autograph and I get snooked by some dude living in his mothers' basement with a few sharpee pens, who cares. Screw you.

And I have so many people lined up out the door for this wonderful service and I can barely deal with them.

God bless America.

Plus, if we drop a card and thereby damage it, giving it a ding it didn't have when it arrived, we grade it as such, and screw you!

I've had it happen,

Larry

[Exhibitman]

Ditto, Larry. As recently as two years ago. PSA turned a spectacular Maurice Richard (hockey player, for those who don't know) 1960 Parkhurst card into a less spectacular one with a hairline crease.



And while I still love the card, it was a stone cold 8 when I sent it in.

[Snapolit1]

Live shot of cards being graded.

[Lordstan]

For the record, I am not a lawyer.

As far as financial responsibility, to me, it seems that the TPA should only be liable for the auction price if the AH cannot get the money back from the consignor. Even then, it seems that the AH should be liable to refund the purchasing party. They could then possibly sue the TPA for restitution as they could attempt to prove that they accepted the item for sale only based on the opinion of the TPA. Had the TPA not approved it, they would have not sold it and therefore would not have a loss.

IMO, AH and TPAs should be liable for criminal charges only if you could prove they knew the item was fake and either certed the item and/or sold the item with the intent to defraud the buyer.

Again, this is a non lawyer's perspective and understanding. I wonder if someone with real legal knowledge could tell me if I am correct or not.

Another thought: Officially, TPAs only provide opinions, so legally it seems they would be liable for the value of that opinion. I guess what I don't know is if their advertising stating that their opinions helps to improve prices and values of item could somehow make them have additional financial responsibility because they claim it does. Not sure.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Live shot of cards being graded.

Nicely done!

[biggsdaddycool]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Live shot of cards being graded.

+1


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[conor912]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

I guess what I don't know is if their advertising stating that their opinions helps to improve prices and values of item could somehow make them have additional financial responsibility because they claim it does. Not sure.

So if a $100 ungraded item becomes a $1000 graded item, the value of the opinion is $900 which they should be on the hook for? Interesting thought.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by conor912

So if a $100 ungraded item becomes a $1000 graded item, the value of the opinion is $900 which they should be on the hook for? Interesting thought.

Yes. That is what i meant. As an additional point, one could look at their pricing policy being scaled based in the value of the autograoh and not the work/time needed to vette any aigular graph as further proof that they tie their opinion to the price of the auto. It seems to fit logically that they should then have more risk for higher priced autos/cards. If they are just providing an opinion, then each opinion should have the same value.
It makes me wonder how this has been handled in other collecting areas like the high end art market. Is Christie's held responsible for the authenticity if each piece or art it sells? Is the liability just for the sale price?

Interesting subject.

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