Auction House RULES

[Fred]

For the most part, people that have been in the hobby for a while and make purchases through auction houses are aware of the documented shill bidding that took place in the Mastro auctions. In a recent thread related to the Masto shill bidding the topic of auction house rules came up. Rather than continue on the topic in that thread, I figured it would be interesting to start a new thread about auction house rules. I'm going to guess that I'm like most people and rarely/never reads through all of the things we are accepting as terms of service, etc. We just hit the accept/acknowledge button and move on to bidding.

The following is item 21 of the Heritage auction rules. I was wondering if anybody has read through the other auction house rules and found the same language with regard to auction house employees bidding in the auctions? Am I just naive or is this a common practice/rule that is common for auction houses? The following is a direct copy/paste from the Heritage rules:



21. The Auctioneer, its affliates, or their employees consign items to be sold in the Auction, and may bid on those lots or any other lots. Auctioneer or affliates expressly reserve the right to modify any such bids at any time prior to the hammer based upon data made known to the Auctioneer or its affliates. The Auctioneer may extend advances, guarantees, or loans to certain consignors.


Any comments that defend the practice or abhor the policy would be interesting to read.

[Sean]

Yes, Heritage allows schilling by it's employees. And as long as they get the best stuff, people will continue to bid with them.

[buymycards]

So, why is this OK? The employees are able to shill the bids for their own items, and for items that are consigned by others. How is this different from the Mastro shilling?

Rick

[jefferyepayne]

I read them. Been meaning to create a website that compares major auction house rules so those that have rules that don't favor collectors can be highlighted.

Until collectors stop bidding with auction houses that don't play fair, this will never stop. Stuff DOES NOT trump all.

jeff

[x2drich2000]

This is definitely not common, but that language has been in Heritage's T&C for
a long time. Heritage is the only one I am aware of that specifically allows it. I know REA, LOTG, and Huggins and Scott specifically indicate that no employees can bid though I believe most other auction houses have similar language.

What I am little bit surprised by is the number of people who are bidding in auctions that seem like they never read the terms and conditions. Yes, some of them are very boring and legalized, but a few of them are even entertaining, identify previous renegers, or terms that may be concerning such as the Heritage bidding.


DJ

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by buymycards

So, why is this OK? The employees are able to shill the bids for their own items, and for items that are consigned by others. How is this different from the Mastro shilling?

Rick

I guess from a legal standpoint, the difference is that HA discloses it, so it isn't fraud. Whether it's appropriate is a value judgment.

[swarmee]

It's also legal in the state that they operate in, and it's fully disclosed (albeit in a document only 1/10 or so of the bidders have actually read). So that's why it's not criminal, while Mastro's was. Now if Heritage uses SecretSquirrelBidProtection and allows you to place a max bid, telling you that it's encrypted data they can't see, but they can, then that would constitute fraud. #runonsentence

Forgot to add: Cider House RULES

[commishbob]

Originally Posted by Fred

21. The Auctioneer, its affliates, or their employees consign items to be sold in the Auction, and may bid on those lots or any other lots. Auctioneer or affliates expressly reserve the right to modify any such bids at any time prior to the hammer based upon data made known to the Auctioneer or its affliates. The Auctioneer may extend advances, guarantees, or loans to certain consignors.


Any comments that defend the practice or abhor the policy would be interesting to read.

I’ve read this in both threads now and I keep thinking that I (we) are interpreting this wrong. LOL How can anyone who is aware of this put their faith in Heritage? As one who was just beginning to seriously look at bigger ticket items thru AHs this is really disconcerting. I’m thru with Heritage. Not that they’ll miss me.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by buymycards

So, why is this OK? The employees are able to shill the bids for their own items, and for items that are consigned by others. How is this different from the Mastro shilling?

Rick

Shill bidding is NOT illegal in Texas or many other states. There are reasons many AH's are located in the states they are in.

That and a very high percentage of buyers/bidders just don't care who they buy from as long as they get their must have item.

I was discussing the Candiman AH and the responses form members in that thread with a few other members. The thing we found most disturbing is the amount of hate they got for running their little scams. Then these same exact people promote and brag about buys from sellers that do more fraud in a single auction than Daniel has done in his lifetime.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I don't know of any state where it's legal to "shill" bid and then remove a bid if you accidentally go too far which is what the clause above appears to say. In PA an owner is allowed to bid on his own items, but if he wins he has to pay the juice to take his item back. We as an auction house do not allow an owner to bid on their own item, and we don't place any bids ourselves on any items. Occasionally I have an employee who wants something for their collection, we disclose that at the auction.

[Rhotchkiss]

Disclosed or not, it’s definitly messed up. Will I bid in Heritage’s next auction? Yes, if they have something I want. Sad but true

That said, I think there is a difference between shilling (inflating prices) and the auction house or it’s employees bidding on something with the intent to win and pay for it; like a real estate broker making an offer on a client’s listing.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Disclosed or not, it’s definitly messed up. Will I bid in Heritage’s next auction? Yes, if they have something I want. Sad but true

L.

I, too, would bid, but I guess I’d ask, why should you or I or anyone else apologize for bidding with Heritage? I don’t understand the sentiment expressed by others in this thread that the way to show your displeasure with their policies is to avoid bidding. That just means someone else will step in and fill the void.

End of day, AHs don’t make their money from bids; they make them from consignments. Bidders will always be there, but if a firm has nothing to sell, they’re done. I, for one, don’t appreciate the policies Heritage has, and frankly, I think their biggest transgression is that they nuke their scans, so I would not consider consigning my cards there. Clearly though, I’m in the minority, as they seem to land amazing sh*t each and every auction.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The scans are a mixed blessing. On the one hand you need eye protection, but on the other hand they are so high res that you can get a phenomenal close-up of the edges and corners.