Indians to remove chief Wahoo stating in 2019

[Rookiemonster]

Well as a Yankees fan I can’t say it hurts me that bad. But I do feel this is unnecessary to do at this point. I know not everyone will agree with me but this seems to be to PC for me. We will have to start removing everything from the public eye in fear of offending someone. You can’t please all the people all the time.

[bbcard1]

Another case of the white man putting the red man down.

[darwinbulldog]

Good.

[iowadoc77]

We live in a too-easily-offended society. Just my 2 cents worth. Sad to see it go. Such an iconic logo

[packs]

People often bring hyperbole into these things but I don't see how this could negatively impact anyone. Nor do I see much more room in sports for something like this to occur, perhaps outside of the Red Skins. So I don't really understand the "what's next?" point of view. There's nothing arbitrary about the decision.

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by packs

People often bring hyperbole into these things but I don't see how this could negatively impact anyone. Nor do I see much more room in sports for something like this to occur, perhaps outside of the Red Skins. So I don't really understand the "what's next?" point of view. There's nothing arbitrary about the decision.

I am increasingly finding it difficult to care about what anybody does.

[Rookiemonster]

I agree packs but also the name Indians would have to be changed. Also the name of the Yankees comes from a derogatory term for the Dutch in the north.
Getting in to other sports would open more of this up( like the red skins) maybe we should start call the teams 1-2-3 etc .

[Orioles1954]

About time. If the logo is supposedly no big deal then there shouldn't be any problems in changing it.

[packs]

That's what I mean though, Yankees and Indians are not the same as a logo made to stereotype a group of people. Nothing about indians by itself is offense, and there certainly isn't anything offensive about Yankee. But when you pair the image of an indian with stereotypical features, you're creating something that is offensive to people.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

People often bring hyperbole into these things but I don't see how this could negatively impact anyone. Nor do I see much more room in sports for something like this to occur, perhaps outside of the Red Skins. So I don't really understand the "what's next?" point of view. There's nothing arbitrary about the decision.

The "what's next" point of view means what's next in society, not just the sports world.

For someone who advocates Freedom of Speech (as you certainly did in the Colin Kaepernick thread defending his right to kneel), you sure don't mind limiting the speech of others.

[packs]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The "what's next" point of view means what's next in society, not just the sports world.

For someone who advocates Freedom of Speech (as you certainly did in the Colin Kaepernick thread defending his right to kneel), you sure don't mind limiting the speech of others.

This part of the hyperbole I was talking about. Limiting speech how? You can wear any shirt you want with the logo on it. You can wear all the hats you want. The baseball team just won't be using the logo as their official logo anymore. What does that have to do with free speech or taking rights away from people?

[Marckus99]

Great.
And now the world has been cured of all its ills.
Just like that.

[Rookiemonster]

I also feel a way a about a name to this day the negro leagues. While it was named this a pointvin history where is was considered acceptable is still hard to say in 2018. I remember talk Baseball with a coworker and saying it without thinking then he made a face and I was like oh snap. And looked around to see a few confused faces .

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Marckus99

Great.
And now the world has been cured of all its ills.
Just like that.

Of course not. Just a tiny, teeny step in the right direction.

[Aaron Seefeldt]

It could also be a marketing thing.

Change the logo, sell more shirts, hats, etc. With all the success of the Indians the last 2 years, they might be looking for a new way to boost sales.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Next...

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Next...

Good for you. At least now we all know

[Peter_Spaeth]

It is an obnoxious logo and it's probably long overdue that they lost it. That said, of course symbolic gestures like these aren't going to do a heck of a lot to solve the devastating problems facing many Native Americans. In that regard, although it's decades old now, Gary Smith wrote a brilliant piece in Sports Illustrated about a basketball player who for a time left the reservation to play for a small college, and the difficulties he faced including being stigmatized by many of his people.

[ejharrington]

I'm offended, the New York Americans should change their name:


1. Yan·kee
[ˈyaNGkē]

NOUN
informal
Yankees (plural noun)
1. derogatory
a person who lives in, or is from, the US.
2. US
an inhabitant of New England or one of the northern states.
3. a code word representing the letter Y, used in radio communication.
4. sailing
a large jib set forward of a staysail in light winds.

[prewarsports]

The name "Indians" was an early attempt to honor a Native American star (Louis Sockalexis) in the 1910's and hearken back to the 1890's when the Cleveland team was good and he was the centerpiece of the squad. Removing the logo is fine, but I think changing the name of this team would be a mistake. Create a new logo that honors the heritage instead.

[Stampsfan]

This thread has the potential to go off the rails big time. Let's all play nice, boys.

I feel that if the people that could potentially be offended are bringing this up, that would be the best barometer to gauge a change. A bunch of rich middle aged white guys making this decision, IMHO, limits the credibility and smacks of political correctness. Is there an outcry from our Native American brethren? I simply don't know.

There are so many comparatives that we've all heard, including the Blackhawks (who were named in honor of Chief Black Hawk), and even the Eskimos in our little football league up here. But the angle I best remember (and wish it was my original thought) was something I read a couple of years ago around the "Fightin' Irish". There is what could be interpreted as a poor characterization of Irish folks by the logo, and insinuation that they are all a bunch of lewd, scrappers. However, nobody is up in arms about that one one because the Irish have a sense of humor.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

The name "Indians" was an early attempt to honor a Native American star (Louis Sockalexis) in the 1910's and hearken back to the 1890's when the Cleveland team was good and he was the centerpiece of the squad. Removing the logo is fine, but I think changing the name of this team would be a mistake. Create a new logo that honors the heritage instead.

I just learned something. Thank you.

I agree, a bunch of middle aged white guys shouldn't be deciding what is or isn't offensive to others. This applies to pretty much everything

[Peter_Spaeth]

Middle aged white guys are sometimes the agents of revolutionary change. Abraham Lincoln, for one. Earl Warren and the Supreme Court, for another. Lyndon Johnson and the Civil Rights Act.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

This thread has the potential to go off the rails big time. Let's all play nice, boys.

I feel that if the people that could potentially be offended are bringing this up, that would be the best barometer to gauge a change. A bunch of rich middle aged white guys making this decision, IMHO, limits the credibility and smacks of political correctness. Is there an outcry from our Native American brethren? I simply don't know.

There are so many comparatives that we've all heard, including the Blackhawks (who were named in honor of Chief Black Hawk), and even the Eskimos in our little football league up here. But the angle I best remember (and wish it was my original thought) was something I read a couple of years ago around the "Fightin' Irish". There is what could be interpreted as a poor characterization of Irish folks by the logo, and insinuation that they are all a bunch of lewd, scrappers. However, nobody is up in arms about that one one because the Irish have a sense of humor.

Native Americans have demonstrated on Opening Day every year since 1973.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Native Americans have demonstrated on Opening Day every year since 1973.

I was at the Super Bowl when the Redskins played the Bills. There was a very large and vocal protest.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Middle aged white guys are sometimes the agents of revolutionary change. Abraham Lincoln, for one. Earl Warren and the Supreme Court, for another. Lyndon Johnson and the Civil Rights Act.

LOL! Peter, you had me until your LBJ reference. He was a racist! Already had this discussion with someone else on Friday, so I am very well equipped to defend my position on that one.

[bigfish]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Well as a Yankees fan I can’t say it hurts me that bad. But I do feel this is unnecessary to do at this point. I know not everyone will agree with me but this seems to be to PC for me. We will have to start removing everything from the public eye in fear of offending someone. You can’t please all the people all the time.

Poor use of time, resources, and energy.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by packs

Native Americans have demonstrated on Opening Day every year since 1973.

A SMALL NUMBER OF Native Americans have demonstrated on Opening Day every year since 1973.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

LOL! Peter, you had me until your LBJ reference. He was a racist! Already had this discussion with someone else on Friday, so I am very well equipped to defend my position on that one.

David, he doubtless was for much of his life, but he changed. Read the incredible speech to Congress where the punch line is his adoption of the "We Shall Overcome" lyric.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

I'm offended, the New York Americans should change their name:


1. Yan·kee
[ˈyaNGkē]

NOUN
informal
Yankees (plural noun)...

4. sailing
a large jib set forward of a staysail in light winds.

If I were a Yankees fan I would object to being associated with a large jib set forward of a staysail in light winds. I would vote to change the team name to "New York Northeast Americans", as geographically this just plain makes sense, and would rid the team of the negative sailing connotations associated with light winds.

Brian

[drcy]

Irrelevant to political/racial issues and whether or not the name 'Indians' itself is reverent, it's a rather stupid and outdated cartoon logo, and teams alter and change their logos all the time. My various favorite teams have changed their logos and designs regularly during my fandom-- sometimes to my aesthetic disappointment. I wish the Milwaukee Brewers had kept their 'ball in glove' logo.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

I agree, a bunch of middle aged white guys shouldn't be deciding what is or isn't offensive to others. This applies to pretty much everything

I agree. So let the Native Americans speak for themselves.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.1183ae35b0f7

By the way, the Indians are being massive babies about this on Facebook. I posted a vulgar-free, factual comment using the article above, and they marked it as SPAM. I'm PO'd as a diehard Indians fan. Rob Manfred can kiss my rear end, too, which is what the spineless Paul Dolan should have told him to do.


KEEP THE CHIEF

[packs]

The issue is not about polling it's about treating people with respect regardless of whether X number of people think you should. Also this article is about the name "Redskins" and not related at all to the Chief Wahoo logo.

[TobaccoKing4]

I'm not happy about Wahoo being removed, but I wonder if there will be a name change in the future. I think it'd be cool if they went back to being the Cleveland Spiders, or even cooler if they took the name of the Cleveland Naps.

[drcy]

The Spiders would be cool.



Bonus point to anyone who know what movie that image comes from.

[Dewey2007]

As an American Indian I am glad to see the Chief Wahoo symbol go as iconic as it is to many. I am not opposed to them keeping the name Indians if they should consider getting rid of that to. If they were smart they would reach out to the local tribes in the area and see what they can come up in terms of a symbol that is non-offensive and represents the local tribes of the area. Something they should have done long ago. I think that would be a win-win for both the tribes and the team.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by TobaccoKing4

I'm not happy about Wahoo being removed, but I wonder if there will be a name change in the future. I think it'd be cool if they went back to being the Cleveland Spiders, or even cooler if they took the name of the Cleveland Naps.

They won’t do something cool like that. They don’t want to offend anything or anyone in the Arachnid or LaJoie Family. In this era, it’s always a benign/cheap nickname that wins out... often not ending in an “s”. The WFL pretty much started this awful trend (Shreveport Steamer, Southern California Sun). And ever since, it’s just gotten worse.

Maybe they could follow Stanford’s lead. I know the name “Cardinal” is already taken, but perhaps they could be the “Cleveland Scarlet”. They could wear plain red hats, and a name like that could strike some fear into their opponents.

Perfect for a bland society!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Being of Irish descent, I am offended by the Boston Celtics branding of a leprechaun in their logo. It's insensitive and stereotypical to Irish people. Who do I contact to have it removed?

Edited to add: And while we're at it, can I get that little leprechaun from ND removed too? That's just as offensive to me with his little fists raised in the air like he's ready to fight. Fighting Irish? I'm a lover, not a fighter.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by drcy

The Spiders would be cool.



Bonus point to anyone who know what movie that image comes from.

Like OJ, I'll take a stab at it. Tarantula (1955)?

[timn1]

That logo is an embarrassment. It’s hard to even imagine a more uncomplimentary image of an “Indian” than that face is.

Originally Posted by packs

That's what I mean though, Yankees and Indians are not the same as a logo made to stereotype a group of people. Nothing about indians by itself is offense, and there certainly isn't anything offensive about Yankee. But when you pair the image of an indian with stereotypical features, you're creating something that is offensive to people.

[rainier2004]

Wow, all these great ideas about what should be done representing an entire group of people that were suppressed and destroyed. Native Americans were treated like pure garbage for a long time. Many Native Americans fought for and defended this country during WW1 w/o citizenship and basic rights we take for granted.

This conversation isn't about the Irish who were also oppressed for a long time...

That logo is so bad, so stereotypical and just condones making fun of certain groups. Polish are ok to make fun of...dumb polocks right?

How about if the organization actually reached out with the local tribes like previously mentioned? Why not? Why not respect others and change to evolve of society?

FSU has done some things to reach out to the Seminole Nation...just doesn't seem that complicated to me. Just be respectful, that's something we haven't always done in the past and does not quantify a reason to not do it in the future.

[timn1]

I don't see why this is so difficult to grasp either - just treat all groups of people with respect-

Originally Posted by rainier2004

Wow, all these great ideas about what should be done representing an entire group of people that were suppressed and destroyed. Native Americans were treated like pure garbage for a long time. Many Native Americans fought for and defended this country during WW1 w/o citizenship and basic rights we take for granted.

This conversation isn't about the Irish who were also oppressed for a long time...

That logo is so bad, so stereotypical and just condones making fun of certain groups. Polish are ok to make fun of...dumb polocks right?

How about if the organization actually reached out with the local tribes like previously mentioned? Why not? Why not respect others and change to evolve of society?

FSU has done some things to reach out to the Seminole Nation...just doesn't seem that complicated to me. Just be respectful, that's something we haven't always done in the past and does not quantify a reason to not do it in the future.

[Dewey]

Caricatures of historically oppressed peoples are bad form. Good riddance to Chief Wahoo. To desire these caricatures gone is not "pc," it is being a decent human being. Cartoonish depictions of oppressed people do not arise in a vacuum. They are often rooted in explicit or implicit bias. Removing the caricature does not end the disadvantage of the group, but is a form of not kicking a man when he's down. If you can't or don't want to help a guy up, at least don't kick him. Not a great moral advance, but at least it is something.

Team names/mascots that refer to people groups and reflect them in a strong, dignified way are fine by me. But caricatures are not that.

Our images matter. That say something, whether intended or not. This is a move in a healthy direction. The town of Whitesboro, NY learned the lesson. Why not the Indians?

[Peter_Spaeth]

That has to be the Net 54 debut of the lovely Tandra Quinn.

[drcy]

Mesa of Lost Women (1953). My all-time favorite of the 'So Bad They're Good' vintage horror films (And I've seen all the Ed Wood films).

[Section103]

Originally Posted by Dewey2007

As an American Indian I am glad to see the Chief Wahoo symbol go as iconic as it is to many. I am not opposed to them keeping the name Indians if they should consider getting rid of that to. If they were smart they would reach out to the local tribes in the area and see what they can come up in terms of a symbol that is non-offensive and represents the local tribes of the area. Something they should have done long ago. I think that would be a win-win for both the tribes and the team.

Originally Posted by timn1

I don't see why this is so difficult to grasp either - just treat all groups of people with respect-

These pretty much sum it up for me. It wont solve the world's problems, but its a step in the right direction. The sky wont fall when the change is made, either.

[baseball tourist]

Originally Posted by Section103

These pretty much sum it up for me. It wont solve the world's problems, but its a step in the right direction. The sky wont fall when the change is made, either.

Agreed. Long overdue.

[KMayUSA6060]

I challenge everyone complaining about Chief Wahoo to actually do something for these oppressed Native Americans you apparently care so much about. Protest the government for putting them on reservations, protest to get them their land back. Hell, leave this country since it belonged to them before the white man came along. Take action, other than getting rid of a logo designed to pay tribute to Indians, to clear your conscious and rid yourself of whatever guilt you may feel for some reason.

Otherwise, you're choosing to be offended, and for some reason you think the world should shift/change to fit your beliefs. That's exactly what this is about. It's incredible how little credit you're giving those who oppose you. What did they do to make you believe they are so heartless for liking Chief Wahoo? What if they just choose to not look for something offensive? What if they simply view Chief Wahoo for what it is: a fun-loving, smiling Indian logo created to pay homage to Native American heritage, Cleveland baseball history, and Louis Sockalexis? Just take a second and think about that. Why do SO many people like him if he's supposedly that offensive? Why don't you just not support the Indians?

Now my team that I've grown up rooting for, the one that has had Chief Wahoo since the '40s, chose to cower to Manfred and the minority. I now lose the chance to see Chief Wahoo on the National Stage. Do you know how proud I and so many others were to see that smiling Indian in the World Series in 2016? I was a baby, but I don't think I've ever heard a story about people bitchin' and moanin' in the '90s when the Jake was sold out game after game for nearly a decade, Chief Wahoo on EVERYONE's person. I own ONE tshirt with the Block C, and that's because it has an American Flag in it (is that offensive because we took this land from he Native Americans?).

Additionally, you can't marginalize vintagetoppsguy for bringing up the Irish mascot for both the Celtics and Notre Dame. That's hypocritical. Or how about the following...

San Francisco Giants = offensive to little people
Minnesota Twins = offensive to only children, triplets, quintuplets, etc.
NY Yankees = offensive to the Dutch (didn't know that) and southerners; hell, as a northerner, I'm not sure I like being referred to as a Yankee
Tampa Bay Rays = what about the rest of the shark family?
Chicago Cubs = offensive to grown bears, plus the bear is brown; what about black bears, polar bears, etc.?
White Sox & Red Sox = what about blue sox, grey socks, black socks, green socks, yellow socks, etc.?
Kansas City Royals = offensive to people who aren't of royal blood
Oakland A's = an elephant on a circus ball is offensive, especially considering the Ringling Bros Circus or whatever was discontinued to people getting offended
Detroit Tigers = what about the rest of the cat family?
Philly Phanatic = what about lethargic fans?
Colorado Rockies = what about the Appalachian Mountains?
Arizona Diamondbacks = really, referring to rattlesnakes as diamondbacks... that's pretty offensive to them
Cardinals & Orioles = what about other birds?

I'll stick to just the MLB, and won't bring up the other offensive names in sports; I'm sure if I look hard enough, I could find something to be offended about with every single nickname/logo in sports. And how ridiculous the above seem, is how ridiculous the argument against Chief Wahoo is with very few of the outspoken minority against Chief Wahoo being Native American (from what I've seen/heard).

Keep the Chief. You'll see me an thousands of others at games next year sporting nothing but Chief Wahoo gear.

And another sick angle to this: Manfred probably threatened to take away the 2019 All Star Game if Dolan kept Chief Wahoo.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I am reminded of one of the most pathetic sights I ever have seen -- Jane Fonda doing the tomahawk chop.